israel pls
Do you know what happened in 2009 if an alliance partner didn’t show up?
You can not determine how good/ bad a game is by looking at week 1 events. This is especially true for a game that was broken for week 1 but is already hugely improved with the G40, G28 and high goal updates. As a person who has seen 13 different FRC competitions play out I can confidently say there have been WAY worse games:
2002: The choke hold strategy.
2003: Who really stacked to win other than 67?
2009: Over half the points where scored by human players.
2010: Human player fouls worse than this year.
2011: OP minibots.
2012: Co-Op bridge ruined rankings.
Wait for the week 3 regionals to make that call. Trust me it will improve. If there is a rule change, field change, or FMS update that needs to happen it will.
Just my $0.02.
I leave you with this video from 2002. if you still think this game is flawed then i give up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAmAnkYDUQM
No, I don’t.
It’s 00:23 A.M. and the competition was just over, so I would like to resay the main thing I wanted to say before sleeping,
Being disappointed is fine and mabye the game will show us some awasome things in the next weeks, but the disappointment in here is big because it was week 1 and we have no other opportunity.
I wish I could wait for week 3, the competition ended for me today and even the update of the rules didn’t came fast enough to help.
While I do agree with you that the game has a few frustrating glitches, I like aerial assist. I do admit, being a scout at a district event in quals got boring after a while, but as soon as the good teams hit the field, the gym was lit up with excitement. And once elims hit, forget about it. Most exciting elims i will probably ever see. Not once was there a blowout. Even alliances 8 and 7 gave 1 and 2 some huge problems(trust me, my team was on alliance 2). Our quarterfinal match was crazy. We had won the first game, they the second(because we lost comm). The third match they won, but because a pedestal glitch hurt our alliance greatly, there was a replay. We then tied the replay, and we won because tiebreaker rules said that the team with the most assist points would win. At that point, I was informed by the sound guy at the place that the gym hit 105 decibels. Absolutely wild. Unfortunately, this is where the fouls come in. The semis match that we were in, we lost the first one for comm issues, won the second because they got a technical(we would have won anyway). Then we lost the third because we got a technical AND a regular. I don’t know if many other teams are having trouble, but G12 was a killer at our event. Everyone is talking about G40, but in my opinion G12 is worse. Seriously though, mount olive district event was a ton of fun. Big thanks to our alliance partners, 1923 and 219! You guys were great and I hope we can play together again at MAR champs. And congrats to teams 75, 56, and 2577 for winning the event. We had one crazy semis match! So in conclusion, I have to say I disagree about the disappointing game. To me, the defense is exciting, and the assists just add a whole new layer of strategy to the game. If you couldn’t tell from my horribly long explanation, I love aerial assist, as can’t wait until our next event, Chestnut hill.
Awesome. This is exactly how the game is meant to be played.
I’ll fill you in: Your opponent got 1 trailer sitting right in front of one of their human players. As I recall, that was a virtually guaranteed 20+ point advantage for them. That’s the equivalent of a single Foul in this year’s game–but scores were higher. In other words, you started out with one Foul per robot missing. Not a great game.
So… when is Israel going to try to adopt some of the district model? Or have a 2nd regional? Seems like every couple of years someone’s complaining that their one-and-only chance at qualification for Championship is gone, and the game wasn’t played right at that event. To me, that’s kind of a sign that maybe you guys could use a second event, even if it is just the same teams again.
Coming from Hawaii I certainly understand this. I am not sure of the exchange rate and such, but traveling from Hawaii to do another regional seems just as expensive… A round trip from Ben Gurion to NYC is about 950 USD. From Kona, Hawaii to Los Angeles, California a flight is 850+. I just did a quick Expedia search for the same days in the first week of April. Of course I am not sure of the other issues that are encountered when traveling from there to here. We have done a few mainland regionals as well as an international event in Canada. We fundraise all year long because of this. Sadly this year we were unable to generate enough funds to do an additional regional. I do understand your frustration. It can be very expensive, 95%+ of the Hawaiian teams do not travel out of state and just compete in the one and only Hawaii regional. Be proud of what you have accomplished. FRC is the “Hardest Fun Ever!”
Aloha!
I completely agree with you. Everytime I check “Team Update” there is always something new regarding alliances. I believe they are putting too much rules on how alliances should work, and in the end all these rules may confuse players and drivers. Too many rules about how alliances should be runned.
I’m not entirely sure you’re reading the same team updates everyone else is reading.
I noticed several posts mentioning the unfairness of Israeli teams going to only one regional. Its worth noting that this is the case for the majority of FRC teams the world over, including many (most?) that played in week one events. According to Mark’s data (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1201822&postcount=297) only about a third of teams attend multiple events, counting districts. Outside of districts, nearly 75% of teams attend only one event. Until districts become universal, yours isn’t a unique situation.
im one of the people who would prefer every robot against each other and no team, I like games where one robot can win the whole match by themselves like the last 4 years, I don’t really like relaying the fate of a match on other people within my alliance I want to rely on myself only
An avarge of 30 teams in the israeli regional from year 2005, thats 30 * 10 = 300 robots.
only 1 of those robots was in 2 regionals, it’s 99.67% of the robots in israel that only compete once.
If 75% of the teams are participating in 1 regional, statisticly 14% of them are in week 1, and they have a choice(altruogh some for sure have problems with that too).
Does my efforts count less?
I gave everything for the build season and the preparation earlier, why should it end that way?
My team grows and does great work growing to become champions somewhen, we were very close last year if someone checked it out,
but together with trying to do our best we will keep the criticism to try getting FIRST forward.
The thread is going into a direction I didn’t mean. Not the chances given to every team is matter, not the result, but the message the students are getting. Teams that are competing in week 1 should get the same message as week 6 and 7. The message should be FIRST goals/mission that the best robot, the most inspirational, the most engineered robot may win is not passing to the students when more than 50 % ( don’t catch me on how exactly) is about strategy which relaies on other teams and less on your own team R&D that should led into a great working robots that score points.
The best robots do win at the end but the seeding system is not showing that because of the assist, fouls and defencive game.
I think it was pretty obvious that the 2 best teams overall in Israel this year were 3316 and 1574. And they did win… At the end of the day, 1574 ranked 25 in quals because of bad “luck”, but were good enough on the field that they got selected as the 1st choice of the 1st seed (that would be 3316)…
About having bad partners in all 10 matches… the disrespect that screams from that statement aside, mabye if it happened in ALL 10 matches, the issue was not with the partners…
On the technical side of things, I just have to say that FIRST needs to get it together… you cannot have the FMS crash during practice day for about 4 hours with teams yearning for play time, plenty of matches replayed (including F1, which was replayed but the FMS already tweeted a blue win. The rematch was then won by Red which won 2-1 in the Finals), and so on… They have a year to get ready with what I’m assuming is a pretty big budget… things like that should not happen, regardless of which regional you are at. I know things will never be prefect, but things like this happen, sadly, too frequently.
(And as a side note, that obviously is not a spite at the volunteers and the folks over at the Israeli regional, who gave it all they had and then some more, doing great work on fixing the issues on practice day, and in general - giving a great experience overall 
)
Seeding has always been inaccurate because of the limited amount of matches. Furthermore, practice and strategy has always been an important part of winning in any sport, not just FIRST.
Being at the regional, I don’t think that you can argue that your fate was totally up to bad luck. We together would have won our last match had the ball been put in the low goal instead of you missing the high goal. Making this would have not only given you 30 more assist points, but you would have also seeded 8th. Similarly, we seeded 11th instead of 3rd.
Implementation has always been one of the most important parts of FIRST, and that includes what happens AT the competition. If you don’t like this part of how FIRST works, I’m sure there are many other competitions that have a much more definite outcome.
Well said Hope to see you guys back next year, with another slick robot
Good luck at your next regional! We’ll be hoping you win again in your 2nd regional, after the Israeli one haha
If you’d played that match in elims at Central Illinois the score would have been very different. 1772 would have been being pounded by at least one, if not two, of the red robots & probably wouldn’t have been staying in place to be able to catch. The inbounding wouldn’t have been as smooth either. And I didn’t see anyone slamming into the shooting robot.
By the third match of the finals at CIR we were the only bot that was shooting, but we certainly weren’t playing 1 on 3. Without 525’s assists & ability to provide picks to strip off defenders (ditto 4296 until it got tipped over) the outcome would have been very different.
I’m not saying the blue alliance didn’t have good robots or a good strategy; 1772’s catching looked sweet and 3284 looked really solid. But the red alliance played very ineffective defense, and that contributed to the score. Your strategy is important, but so is the other alliance’s.
Honestly, I think that is an unaccurate assessment. I think the situation in Israel IS in fact unique (with the only other one being Hawaii. The few other FRC teams that are not North America based do not have a local regional and so it’s a different story altogether)… I think the main issue is that the expenses for Israeli/Hawaiian teams wishing to go to another regional are far greater than those of any Contintental American/Canadian team doing the same (For the pure reason of the flights for all students, and getting visas (which costs money)).
When you pay 950+ USD per ticket for 25(ish) students and mentors, that is about 28,500 USD. And that is just for flying the team to New York. I Won’t talk about the further expenses if you reach the Championships… nor the other expenses that are issues for ALL teams going to another regional (transportaion, accomodation, food ect.), but you get the point. Without disrespecting other teams and their fundraising programs, it’s a completely different ballgame.
What I think this post/comments are aiming for, is that it is difficult to have a game that is still glitchy (and I take nothing away from 3316/1574/3065, who were affected just like everone else ofc.), when you have no option to play again, due to the sheer amount of money needed for Israeli/Hawaiian teams to make it to another regional.
HOWEVER, I think that is just how the cookie crumbles. I see no viable solution in the near future and I don’t think there is any blame to pass around in terms of the scheduling of the regional (there were no other good dates).
At the end of the day, TikiTech summed it up nicely: “Be proud of what you have accomplished.” And start your preperations for next season
I’m going to be counterpoint here.
As a 13 year mentor, this is my first year that my sole regional is not a week 1 regional (I was at GSR every year until this year). I agree that it is frustrating when the game is ‘fixed’ after week 1. That being said, this is not about the competition, or the robot. If the kids have been inspired, all is good.
Now on th the seeding system… This years game is an alliance centric game. This means that scouting and strategy BEFORE each match is critical. Understanding what your alliance partners are capable of (or even if they are going to show up) and tailoring your strategy/tactics to utilize their abilities to the most is what will win matches. I truely believe that this year most matches will be won at the strategy sessions (with your alliance) BEFORE the match is started. Hence, you are correct, that the best ROBOTs may not seed well, but the best (mostly) stratigists will. I do not think this is bad, but it is different from years past.
Also, about defense… It’s been a number of years since defense has been allowed to play all out. Most years there are safe zones, and such. Without those rules the defense this year will be brutal. Defenses are allowed to be as agressive as the offensive robots have been for years, and some teams have not properly prepared for it. Game strategy is not always about scoring and offense, and this year playing defense (especially if you are designed for it) may be just as effective (or more so).
JM(NS)HO