disillusionment.

FIRST General Forum
#1

I have lost all interest in FIRST. I was heartbroken by the new restrictions on the teams that could attend nationals. I was never on a winning team, yet I got just as much out of nationals, maybe more, than a student that was on the winning team. While my team did not win, I have the pride in saying that I designed, machined, or built nearly every component of my robot in my 3 years on a team. We did not have a first rate, or even a second rate machine shop, and we did not have quality support from anywhere. However, does this lack in final result mean that I put in any less effort? Does it mean that I learn less? I would argue that I learned more about the person I am. I would argue that I deserve an equal chance to attend nationals as someone who is fortunate enough to have a team that has true support. Apparantly because my team did not produce a robot that won a competition, and my team did not have the funding necessary to win any awards, I am not qualified for nationals. If FIRST thinks that I am not up to its standards, then I say screw it.

The last straw for me was ginger. Dean, someone I looked up to, idolized, even aspired to work for one day, had said before that the only place he would unveil IT was at nationals. Dean and Disney had said that they could handle as many teams as would register. Dean failed me. I do not respect people who do not stand by their word, and Dean has not stood by his word.

I will miss the friendships that were started and those that were nourished from my experience in FIRST. I will miss the design, and the build. And most of the all the competition, of which Dean no longer thought me qualified to attend. I have allowed myself to fade into the shadows, and havent posted in months, I’ve stopped by and read every so often. This is my final goodbye.

Anyone who wishes to talk to me, reply, IM me (partybill3), or email me (wiwhitle@umich.edu).

Peace,
Bill Whitley

#2

Well…

I was kinda definetly looking foward to seeing you starting your own rookie team at Michigan and bringing it to IRI (then winning and getting a free shirt…:stuck_out_tongue: :wink: ), but i’m sure you’ve worked hard and now its time to move on in your life…

Hope you have a fun and successful future.

:slight_smile:

#3

I’ll miss you, Bill!! But, I wish you luck in anything you do.

~Christina

#4

*Originally posted by Bill Whitley *
**
The last straw for me was ginger. Dean, someone I looked up to, idolized, even aspired to work for one day, had said before that the only place he would unveil IT was at nationals. **

I don’t remember Dean ever saying this. People involved with FIRST may have wanted it and said as much but I don’t believe Dean ever said he’d show it off at Nationals. Anyone correct me on this?

Matt

#5

I gotta agree w/ Matt…

People on this forum said Dean should reveal it at the Championship or Kickoff… but I NEVER heard Dean say that…

Plus- Dean has made awesome efforts to create FIRST and keep it going and gaining support… but his ownership of DEKA and other companies has nothing to do with that… there’s no reason he should reveal Segway… iBot… or any future inventions at FIRST competitions… we’re not the people he has to market to…

FIRST is about the experience of working with mentors to build a robot… and Dean is a businessman and inventor…

not one in the same necessarily

#6

**I don’t remember Dean ever saying this. People involved with FIRST may have wanted it and said as much but I don’t believe Dean ever said he’d show it off at Nationals. Anyone correct me on this? **

Yea… I personally hoped that the first place Dean would show of Ginger would be at the 2002 Nat’s but that was only ahope of mine. I don’t ever recall Dean saying that he actually would show it off there, first. That’s all I gots ta say!

  • Katie
#7

FIRST isn’t about a Disney vacation!

And ALL teams can still go to Nationals…just not EVERY year.

Regionals can be every bit as fun as Nationals.

TEENS + ENGINEERS + ROBOTS = FUN…no matter where you are!

Lisa T

#8

I wonder if the people who have replied understand the type of season that some teams go through. Imagine a season where your robot doesn’t work.

Imagine that your robot DOES NOT MOVE in a single match at regionals, so you completely redesign/rebuild the drive system, all new treads, all new mounting, new everything. Then, your robot still DOES NOT MOVE in a single match at nationals.

Imagine that the next year, your robot drivetrain works properly in 4 matches between regionals and nationals. Imagine the system you design for picking up balls doesn’t work, imagine the system you design for lifting the robot doesnt work. Imagine that in every match you participated in, you completed your end of the strategy bargain in 1 match, thats in a regional, nationals, and one after season competition, 1 match.

Imagine the next year, you design a robot to specialize in one thing, and your robot for all of regionals, cannot cross the bridge. At nationals, your robot can move (FINALLY!), but cannot complete the task you designed it to do.

I am not going to get into the politics of my team, and why we had no funding, and no engineering support, and a coach who did more to harm the team than help it. But put yourself in my shoes, those were the results of my 3 years of effort. Regionals are not as much fun as nationals. Nationals were a light at the end of the tunnel.

With these kind of seasons, FIRST IS NOT ALWAYS FUN! Try stratagizing before a match, and telling the other team that you don’t know if your robot can move. Tell a team that you don’t know if you can get over the bridge. Tell a team that you think you can get over the bridge, only to watch your robot BREAK while on the bridge. THIS IS NOT FUN!

Nationals is fun. Regionals are not as much fun as nationals. Simply walking from the pits to the field at nationals in an experience. Walking down a tunnel from a practice court to the basketball court at Eastern Michigan University is not fun. The two are incomparable. Regionals do not compare to nationals.

Welcome to my world of FIRST.

Peace,
Bill Whitley

#9

Actually, you’d be surprised what some of us know…

I’ve been on two ten year teams with win records to some pretty great robots…

I’ve also been on a team who barely moved, didn’t move, didn’t pass inspection until we were running onto the field for the first match on Friday… where we didn’t have money… the few engineers we had got sent to another country mid-build and we couldn’t build what they left us cause, oh yeah, we didn’t have a machine shop of any kind…

We’ve all got our stories…

And if FIRST to you is walking through a pit tent… seeing Einstein field… etc… then buy a plane ticket and head on down…

But if FIRST to you is the experience… of building a robot that may not do everything or anything, but you put your heart into to it and you’re proud… that you can just make the best of… that you can seed dead last and still smile at the end of the day (we definitely did!)… and if you can just improve a little every year… stay in it.

No one is stopping YOU from going to the Championship… but reasonable logistically issues leave FIRST with no choice… they’ve done the best they can… and afterall it’s a competition… and in even the fairest of competitions, you have to do well to move on and win…

It’s too bad you can’t enjoy FIRST w/o a trip to Disney… shrugs… what do you think people did from 1992-1994 when there was no Disney… when Nationals were just a gym up in NH? Was FIRST less of a program? Was it any different?

I think not.

#10

I hate to sound snippy but welcome to real world of design, Bill.
I think we have all had our share of complete utter smack you in the face dissapointment with projects-

this is what it is all about- the dissapointments make you sucesses feel all that much better-

our first year- great coach (no, not me), no engineers and me with a hacksaw and a drill press to make a robot- it was ugly even groteqsue but we were proud of it
our second year- me as coach and engineeringing help- better robot more pride-but absolute immense pressure on this years team- im getting call from business asking how the team looks this year

its all in how you take-
its either lemonade or acidic water take your pick

this is not to belittel how you feel, just my 2cents on how it is

dahl
el teamo 497

#11

*Originally posted by MrsT *
**FIRST isn’t about a Disney vacation!

And ALL teams can still go to Nationals…just not EVERY year.

Regionals can be every bit as fun as Nationals.

TEENS + ENGINEERS + ROBOTS = FUN…no matter where you are!

Lisa T **

He’s going by the fact that those teams who win are favored, while those who work just as hard are “thrown by the roadside”, so to speak.

And even then, the best robots might not be able to compete for a championship title (leaving alot of “what-ifs”).

He wants all teams to have an equal chance, because all work hard and put in a TON of effort. And to choose some because their bots win and by what number you are, its like being told your team’s effort, your team’s hard work, is not valued.

These views do not represent my own (much as I dislike the new restrictions, but its a moot point for my team right now, anyways).

#12

Originally posted by Matt Ryan
He’s going by the fact that those teams who win are favored, while those who work just as hard are “thrown by the roadside”, so to speak.

I agree with Matt & Bill…it is really frustrating when you put your heart into something for 6 weeks straight and then you get sent away and tossed to the side…

I hope FIRST does something about this quallification system or else they are going to lose teams…Im almost sure of it…

#13

I think most of you missed the point of Bill’s post. It’s not about the sad stories or stuff people went through, to me personaly its just saying that FIRST as a competition is worthless. If FIRST is about learning and all, why bother to have nationals at all if all teams cannot attend the national collective learning experience? That is the central theme right? If its going to be a cometition than lets have that and do away with all these oh so sad “learning and growing” stories. If its going to be a learning experience then just stop complaining and quit throwing more money at disney and not have nationals, but wait that reminds me, only the teams with money will be there anyway so why even bother complaining. Yes I agree with Bill, saying unless you win you can just wait and go on your odd/even year is like saying, oh poor little ugly puppy, well find some blind sap to take you in. Now I’m sure you’ll go off and write some post about how wrong I am. Go right ahead, waste your time.

#14

Bill,

If you went to VCU last year with your team, we where paired up in the playoffs (we where team #5!) We had so much fun helping each-other, forgranted it kinda sucked (ok, ok, really sucks) that we didn’t win, but that is some experience. And for the input you have put in, I have done the same. Any whim the robotics club has had, I have tried to fix it, or help out. I was a 2 driver for our arm for 2 matches at VCU, and that was it. I did some of the programming, but if you are in it for the regincion (kant spel) than you are in the wrong sport, or any sport for that matter. Always rember too, this is the saying i live by, Life isn’t always fair. Forgranted, you are out of high school (I think) and you have your own life to take care of, but you shouldn’t bash your team like that, your teacher, engineers, and other people. Imagine all the work they at least tried to do. Building this robot isn’t the easiest thing to do, and on top of that, they have a REAL life to take care of. (Family, jobs, etc…) If it came between my family or FIRST, hopefully i would choose my family (FIRST has made me crazy…) You should step back and look at the WHOLE picture…

Matt…

#15

*Originally posted by D.J. Fluck *
**
I hope FIRST does something about this quallification system or else they are going to lose teams…Im almost sure of it… **

In all honesty, what can they do? With the growth that FIRST is having, it’s inevitable that no matter what site they move the event to, they will need to implement some form of qualifying system. Any site that we move to is eventually going to become too small, if we continue to allow any team who has the money to attend the National Competition. And teams are not getting “thrown to the side” as someone has mentioned…you are still allowed to compete at the regional level. However, just like any other sport where people work for weeks, sometimes even months, to prepare, then have to be one of the “best” teams at an event to advance to a higher level of competition, we now have to do this with FIRST. While some of the people who have been with FIRST since its beginnings, and may not like the change, I would be interested to see how many of the people upset about the changes to the qualifying system were also complaining at/after Nationals last year about the overcrowding.

#16

I had an alternate idea…but it would take me too long to explain it on here and chances are nobody cares on what alternitives there are…

#17

*Originally posted by asher *
**I think most of you missed the point of Bill’s post. It’s not about the sad stories or stuff people went through, to me personaly its just saying that FIRST as a competition is worthless. If FIRST is about learning and all, why bother to have nationals at all if all teams cannot attend the national collective learning experience? That is the central theme right? If its going to be a cometition than lets have that and do away with all these oh so sad “learning and growing” stories. If its going to be a learning experience then just stop complaining and quit throwing more money at disney and not have nationals, but wait that reminds me, only the teams with money will be there anyway so why even bother complaining. Yes I agree with Bill, saying unless you win you can just wait and go on your odd/even year is like saying, oh poor little ugly puppy, well find some blind sap to take you in. Now I’m sure you’ll go off and write some post about how wrong I am. Go right ahead, waste your time. **

Why have a competition at all if FIRST is about the learning experience? Because without the end result(the competitions), the process(where the real learning takes place) has no goal, no motivation. To have FIRST focused solely on the process would turn it into a science fair, which I have a very strong feeling would cause more people to drop out than with the current format. While I understand people have differing opinions on this, and while I am not trying to attack any of those points in particular, the issue stands like this:

  1. In the past 10 years, FIRST has experienced phenomenal growth.

  2. The majority of the learning aspect of FIRST takes place in the build season, preparing for the events.

  3. Once this learning process has been completed, in order for those involved to have a goal to aim for, a competition structure has been set up for the weeks following the build season.

  4. Similar to sporting events at the high school, college, and professional levels, FIRST has implemented a competition structure that starts at the regional level, then progresses to a national championship.

  5. Unfortunately, the size that FIRST has become prevents all teams from going to the National Championship. So, they have implemented a qualifying structure. Because if only the top ranked teams from the various regionals were to attend the nationals, the Championship would go from a 300 team event to a 50 team event, FIRST has implemented a qualifying structure that allows teams who have performed exceptionally in the past in various aspects of the competition to qualify as well as the top performers this year. In order to have an event close to the size that they were aiming for, they have implemented a system that in addition to increasing the size of the event, allows teams the opportunity to travel to Disney at least every other year.

Am I disappointed that not all teams can attend the national competition? Definitely. Do I understand that it was an inevitable consequence of the growth that FIRST is experiencing? Yes.

#18

FIRST sucks, IT REALLY REALLY SUCKS. But I’m a sucker for things that suck. W00t!

(suck isnt a bad word right?)

Ahh I am saddened by another great loss. I will miss you Bill. Alas, I thought I was going myself. I had already spent over $500 on snowboarding gear for the winter. I was already planning on taking a gazillion classes during the winter 2002 semester. I was planning on making a gazillion bucks from my job too! Then, a little tweety bird pecks me on the neck and says, “come fly away with me.” And so I did.

Who else has a love-hate relationship with the phenomenon called FIRST ?

-anton

#19