Districts and the ability for teams to improve

FIRST General Forum
#49

District are absolutely not about sending more teams to CMP. Increasing the size of CMP or moving to the 2CMP is for sending more teams to a CMP.

Districts are about giving all teams the full engineering experience, not just those than can afford $4,000 to attend a second event. In real engineering you iterate, iterate, iterate. In Regionals you build a robot and get one chance to test it in the “real world”, unless you have an extra $4k. In districts you build a robot, test it in the real world, take it home and refine or improve it with the hopes of performing better at your second event. If you do well enough you get a chance to do that again with DCMP. You also get more ability to improve at the individual event since you are guaranteed 12 matches instead of up to 10 or as few at 8 and you have a higher likelihood of making it into the playoffs too.

Comparing the District System to the Regional System is like comparing my 2006 Ford F250 to my 1973 IH 1210. Both will carry 3,000lbs or more of what ever and haul 6 people, 7 in a pinch, have 3 pedals to operate it and will drive all 4 wheels but the similarities end there.

#50

It’s amazing how quickly the reason we went to districts gets misconstrued. You’re absolutely right.

Districts has always been about:

  1. More play (12 matches per event, 2 events per year)
  2. Less money (One ‘regional’ size entry fee for all those events)
  3. Easier accessibility (high schools instead of sports venues)

That’s all districts was ever about. In fact, the math was run through very carefully to make sure that districts never took more than their ‘fair share’ of spots.

#51

The IN switch to districts has really had a rather negative effect on some teams that used to regularly go to worlds. Not sure why that is, but I’m not a huge fan of the impact it has had.

#52

I would disagree. In 2014, IN’s last year on the regional model, 10 teams qualified for Worlds out of the 400 there. This year, there is roughly 400 slots for Worlds and Indiana teams have earned 14. That may not seem like a big difference, but it is a 40% increase in just three years. In addition, if you look back at the past two seasons, only 45 and 135 have qualified both years. Out of the 24+ teams from Indiana over the past two seasons, 4 slots have been for the same two teams. Indiana is seeing quite a variety of teams qualifying for Worlds and that is a great thing, imo.

#53

Take 234 this year for example. They attended a regional but were unable to win thus not securing a CMP spot. Instead, they worked through the district system, won smaller events than the regional and even though they had a rough DCMP, they still got a worlds bid from their points throughout the season, not just a single event. In 2014, we were actually an example of why IN should move to districts. We ranked high at both our regionals, 9 at crossroads and 10 at Queen City. We were quarterfinalists and finalists respectively but were one match short of a worlds bid. If this had been in the district system, we would have had enough points to go to worlds (I know this is without a DCMP. IN calculated the district points each team would have gotten at the end of the season for their presentation)

#54

The implementation of the district model has impacted in a significant way the level of performance within the state of Indiana. Because of the ability to implement changes and improvements throughout the year all teams within the state have become more competitive. Just look at thee events this season and the number of strong teams who were “upset” in eliminations by much less established teams. More plays for less money is great! Time to iterate and improve is priceless. Increased competitiveness is will only help the state to be more competitive at the championship level.

#55

I have been involved with both regionals and districts as a mentor. We played a regional for a few years never making it to worlds. The two teams I am involved with in the district model now qualify for worlds. Last year my rookie team went to world and we competed in 61 matches.

#56

More play for the dollars. For $5000 we get 2 districts and if the team makes it CMP is free. This year we have played 48 matches and have an invite to worlds to play more.

#57

Just because there are some teams that had regularly attended in the past does not mean that the district system is to blame. Sometimes a team’s robot performance declines over time for a number of different reasons. On the other hand it could also be that the switch to the District System has raised the bar by rapidly advancing the quality of teams. See below.

It has been a pleasure seeing your team grow over the years and those of us of in the PNW District owe a HUGE thanks to all the ways your team has contributed to the transition and running of the PNW district. Starting from helping to build the umpteen road cases, the load, unload and set up, providing numerous key volunteers and lots of other things.

Note This is something that is unique in the District system since FIRST has allowed FIRST Washington to pilot a unique payment system that results in no additional charge for DCMP. For most teams in the District system there is an additional $4000 fee due FIRST for DCMP.

#58

For us its the same. we run basically on grants and its been rough all 5 years of our existence, but being able to average 30 matches yearly for $5k makes it worthwhile. This year alone we have played 45 matches, and for the first time ever we have qualified for worlds. We are scrambling to try and pay (we just have enough to register right now) but we couldnt wait to jump at the opportunity to go after barely missing it in 2015.

#59

When I first started, the best fundraising teams would go to 2 or 3 regional events. They were able to unbag, test and improve their bots over each event, while we had our robot sitting in a bag. Teams that have the money can still pay for a third play and get more unbag time and experience, but that won’t effect their ratings when qualifying for district champs as the third play performance is not counted.

Now with districts each team gets the same upbag time. Sure larger teams will still build a 2nd bot. But the effect of districts is to level the field.

Before regionals my team was a one regional player. Now we get twice the plays and a chance to improve the bot. I’ve seen a big improvement in our team numbers and spirit due to this change.

Dave
Build Mentor

#60

To answer the original question, I don’t see Districts excluding many teams from CMPs that would have gotten in with Wildcards at a Regional. Generally the teams receiving Wildcard bids are the captain or 1st pick of the Finalist alliance, which in the District system would earn a considerable amount of points towards qualifying for DCMPs and CMPs based on their selection, qualifying rank, and advancement in the playoffs. A Finalist finish for either of those teams is almost an auto-bid to DCMPs and helps in the chase for a spot at CMPs. The main teams that I can see losing out on a CMPs bid are last picks of Champion and Finalist alliances, who are the ~24th best teams at an event rather than one of the top ~8 teams and may struggle to replicate their success at other events, so they fall short of the points needed for CMPs.

I see the chance to make qualifying for DCMPs as a goal for a team as one of the biggest benefits of Districts besides the plays/$ aspect. For low resource teams in particular (the “one and dones” in the Regional model), trying to make it to DCMPs is a realistic goal that a team can strive for when they are going through a rebuild or are stuck in the limbo of consistently being a captain/first pick but never making it past the semifinals. Arizona is not in Districts but has an unofficial State Championship event in the off season with a similar number of teams as Wisconsin to pull from, and our team has been able to use that event as a tangible goal the last 3 years. 2662 has been rebuilding after nearly dissolving when all the mentors and 90% of the students turned over in a single season so trying to gun for CMPs just isn’t a realistic mindset to have. Qualifying for our “DCMP” is though, and we’ve been able to celebrate the victories of building simple robots that have been low seed captains while qualifying for the State Championship, rather than bemoaning another season of no awards and not making the Finals. The first year when we missed the cutoff we were still able to say “we only missed States by 3 spots” and use that as motivation the next season.

I also disagree with FIRST’s goal of getting as many teams to CMPs as possible, as I think we should be building up the DCMP events to be big deals themselves like Michigan is doing. Long term if FRC wants to be like other major high school competitions then making or winning “States” is the end goal for most teams. I would much rather be inspired by an awesome District or Super Regional event only a few hours away than travel across the country to get the same inspiration. I don’t get the draw in wanting to attend Champs with a “meh” robot that got in on the wait list either, as it was not a great experience for me personally when I was a student. Being the team that knocked 365 over in their last match to cost them an alliance captain spot was not inspiring, nor was fielding a robot that didn’t move for 3 matches due to an upgrade that backfired. Being able to celebrate some success at the Regional level was much more motivating to me than getting “blown out” with a non-competitive bot at Champs. Ironically the best robot from my time as a student didn’t get to Champs because we got knocked out in the semis against a more strategic alliance, losing by 3 points in a rubber match. That bot was the #1 pick and in the District system would have almost certainly gotten a CMPs bid. Districts allow a team to qualify for CMPs in a year when they are competitive enough for it to be an inspirational experience.

#61

Ontario person here.

Like many others have said, the main advantage of Districts is the ability to improve. Last year, we won the RAS, made it to Worlds, and… I’m going to be honest, we didn’t do so well at Worlds. We essentially got two competitions and 20 matches under our belt.

This year, having unbag time was really useful, as well as having two events. Even though we were 24th pick at our first event, and would have qualified to CMP in a regional system, we would have had a mediocre robot. We built several improvements to our robot in the 6-hour unbag time, and improved our record (and robot) at our second event. With these matches ALONE, we were able to get 24 matches.

Thanks to two awards, we were able to qualify for Provincial Champs, where we’ll get another 12 matches. In my opinion, addressing the OP’s point, I think the advantage of the district system significantly allows a team to improve during the course of a season. Yes, the best teams will always qualify to CMP. It’s the question of how to determine the next best who qualify, and I think districts does a better job of that.

#62

I sure hope there are more seats than what I see so far in the construction time lapse at SVSU:

Looks like maybe 3500 seats to me. :eek:

#63

That sure does look small. Considering each field should expect typical district event capacity for spectators, I was thinking that is going to create a lot of standing or very friendly people watching matches.

Edit: just looked it up - 3932 seats available total. FiM asks for 1200 minimum to host a 40 team district event.

#64

One thing I’d love to see is to make the District Championships feel more like a mini-World Championship. It sounds like FIM is already well on their way. For example, one of the great things about World Championships outside of the actual games are the seminars and workshops. I don’t know how feasible it would be to introduce workshops and seminars at a District level (obviously it would depend on the saturation and expertise available for any given district) but that would offer really cool learning opportunities to students and mentors alike.

We already use events as informal networking and learning opportunities, it would be neat if they could offer more formal ones.

#65

Wikipedia says:

James E. O’Neill Arena, the flagship facility of the complex and a 3,932-seat indoor arena used for basketball; it can seat up to 4,932 for concerts and features 11,284 square feet (1,048 m2) of space.

But the SVSU site says:

The seating capacity was decreased to 3,500, which makes for a more intimate atmosphere during game day.

#66

Slightly OT, but I think the end game for FIRST is to have district championships that feed super regionals that feed worlds.

I think that it’s likely that a “small” (160-200 team) event with divisions becomes the world championship within the next 10 years, with the big events being the super regionals (north super regional in Detroit, south super regional in Houston).

FIRST’s goal is to get more people to go to these large events because they are undoubtably inspiring to students. The above plan gets more students to experience what we call right now the “worlds experience”, but it also still preserves the competition aspect of it.

However, I’d guess that FIRST hasn’t figured out the logistics, or the density required to have the above plan be successful, which is why we haven’t seen it put into place yet.

#67

Guess those teams that used to regularly go to worlds should step up their game and earn an invite to Champs :]

Districts qualify the teams that truly deserve to go. It does a decent job of sending your best representatives to champs from what I’ve seen thanks to the points system. I still think the World Championship(s) should be the best of the best competing so I don’t have an issue with this.

#68

I, respectfully, disagree.

I come from a community team in Michigan (2959) and I spent four years in the FiM structure, before coming to Indiana.

My experience is that districts help teams flourish. It allows us to compete at multiple competitions for a small chunk of the price it cost to compete at multiple regionals. I wish I had a video, but at P-M, there was a segment before alliance selection used to talk about the positive impact of districts.

The district structure makes it so my team can compete multiple times, make friends on other teams, and get to know the volunteers. It gives us underdogs a chance to go to Champs and a chance to win blue banners, like never before.

The district structure, combined with the help of the government in Michigan, skyrocketed growth in that state. I think we should take some notes out of Michigan’s playbook so we can accomplish Jason’s 80 by 20.