Districts and the ability for teams to improve

FIRST General Forum
#21

I don’t have time to look at the data right now, I’ve got crate supplies and shipping arrangements since our team earned a spot at CMP due to how the district system takes a larger number of overall top performers and not just the winners of an event or qualifying award. The top teams for each of our 4 years in the district system have varied significantly. Yes there are a handful of teams that have made it each year, several who have made it more than once and a number of teams that have made it only one of those 4 years.

At our first event we were the first pick of the finalist alliance. Had it been a Regional that wouldn’t have meant much being a week 1 event there wouldn’t have been a wild card for us. However in the district system we ended the event with 49 points thanks to on the field performance and winning an award. That was enough to set the wheels in motion for reserving hotel rooms at DCMP and CMP since the number of points needed in the past has been around 60 and 120 respectively. At our second event we were again a first round pick but failed to move past the QF round as it was one of the toughest in our area this year. However at that event we managed to get another 26 points thanks to winning an award. With that 75 point total we were solidly above the expected cutoff so we finalized our DCMP plans at the end of week 4.

At DCMP we ended up the 25th seed and were not picked, nor were a lot of teams that seeded above us. (I didn’t understand a lot of the picks that were made this year). But again thanks to winning an award we picked up enough points to qualify for DCMP.

It is also important to note the effect of the district system on the CMP lottery. Since it is known exactly how many teams will qualify for CMP by earning it at DCMP the lottery winners can be notified much earlier. This is because at a Regional there is always a question whether a given event will generate a wild card that can not be used or if a team will decline their CMP invite. Those early lottery awards also mean that more teams will be able to go on merit. In the PNW district since the implementation of early lottery announcements there have been a number of teams who earned a spot that was then passed to the next highest point earning team. If you look at the PNW this year the top 39 teams are advancing despite the fact that 2 teams won a qualifying award placed outside of the top 39.

Long term what I’d like to see is the lottery system move from the HQ level to the District level. So as an example the PNW district has 45 teams attending CMP, our 39 allotment and 6 who accepted their lottery spot, however it is my understanding that there is at least 1 team that did not accept their win.

So my proposal would be that FIRST sets their desired ratio of lottery to qualifying teams and lets the district run the lottery locally. That would mean once the entry into the lottery is closed those spots could be awarded. One other change I would advocate for with this plan is that you would not be eligible to enter the lottery if you have attended in either of the two most recent years.

#22

I’ve only played in Regionals, so I’m curious about this. Does making DCMP in a smaller District feel as good as doing it in a larger one? I think it would be really exciting to play in a big District like FIM, CHS, MAR, ONT, and PNW, that have Regional (or bigger) sized DCMPs and a pretty big jump in competition play. Playing in smaller Districts or at smaller DCMPs with fewer teams, though, like IN or NC with 32 apiece, doesn’t seem as impressive. I haven’t played in either of those two Districts this year and didn’t watch many matches from there, so I don’t know for sure, but if I had to guess I would think that the bigger and more selective DCMPs are more impressive and more of an end goal in their own right. I still thank that small Districts are better than Regionals for other reasons, but I’m not convinced on really small DCMPs being end goals.

I did play at the old Boilermaker Regional with 40 teams twice, so I know that small events can be a lot of fun and have great play, but I’m not sure about that being the culminating event of the season.

Part of why I ask is because Wisconsin is slowly starting to get more serious about Districts, but with 57 teams now we might end up with some small events. I think PCH and ISR, with 75 and 64 teams respectively, and 45 each at DCMP, seem like good sizes to try to get to, and a good middle ground goal between little Districts and the behemoths of Michigan and New England.

#23

As a district with a small DCMP (Indiana), I’d say the level of competition does not go down with the smaller number of invited teams. On the contrary, truly only the cream of the crop (pun intended) are there, and it makes the DCMP experience much more exciting and valuable since it’s such an exclusive group of invites.
As a point of reference showing how competitive the INDCMP was, three teams that WON events earlier in the year weren’t selected for [strike]eliminations[/strike] playoffs at the Indiana State Championship.
Also, the intimate size allows for extremely strong relationships to grow among the teams.

#24

To be perfectly honest, that’s pretty common across districts.

540, 1793, 612, 5115, 1389, and 3359 were all event winners this year that were not selected for the playoff rounds of the CHS CMP.

#25

…at an event with nearly double the teams, but still the same amount of playoff spots.

#26

The difference in Michigan has been less about size from when we were 120 teams, we had a 60 team event, Last year at 400-ish, we had a 100 team event (too big).
I will say that ideally you want to pass through roughly 1/3 to 1/2 “to the next level”. At that point, if you are just good enough to make it to the event, you generally feel pretty good about “making it” to the next level. If you have been there a while, then you are trying to play Saturday afternoon (get picked), or trying to be a captain…
When the next level gets down to 25% or less, it gets a little weird. You can have had a really good season and not make it to the next level. This is where things start to get a little cut-throat. For instance, instead of being the 3rd in the #7 alliance, you are wishing to be the 33 in the #3 alliance because making it from Qfs to SFs would give you more points (unlike this year, most years the #7 is a dreadful place to be). Or you might try to cherry-pick an “easy” event to get some points to help ensure making it to states.

Generally speaking, having a fully qualified group made up of “upper half” competitors tends to be very exciting. The play gets much more strategic, and it has a very different feel to it. As always, figuring out that half, is important, and the top is way less important than the cut-off point. Having a clear cut-off is important, and having metrics that shuffle that group helps out a lot.

I have found most are more inspired by seeing results from hard work, than by lucky chance. Having tiers and rungs to climb has generally been a good thing for most teams.

#27

I’ll be interested to see if/when Michigan splits into multiple districts.

#28

Is your concern something like the following situation?

Team A and Team B both decide to build simple robots optimized for scoring gears and climbing. They both compete Week 1, winning their respective events as alliance captains, but Team A won a Regional and Team B won a District. Team A gets a ticket to St Louis/Houston and can spend the next month and a half doing nothing to their robot if they choose. Team B gets enough points that they can reasonably expect to go to their DCMP, but they will need to be competitive at two more events to qualify for one of their District’s CMP slots. Team B does not continue to improve their robot after their first event (for whatever reason). Even though they maintain the same level of performance, their relative performance decreases as other teams improve. As a result, they miss the points cutoff to earn one of their district’s CMP slots.

Over the past four seasons, I have seen several New England teams come out of the gate strong and win their first event Week 1 or 2, only to get outpaced by enough teams over the course of the season that they do not earn a CMP slot. Is this problematic? I think that answer will vary by team. One of the things I like about the District system is it makes it easier for teams to define their own success criteria. Team B may have decided at the beginning of their season that they would be completely satisfied with a District win and a chance to compete at their DCMP, which are both things to be proud of. They are also things that they can point to when recruiting students/mentors/sponsors, “We won an event, and were ranked #XX in the state/region!” In terms of gaining experience and knowledge from attending an event with top level teams, I think there is still ample opportunity for that at the DCMP level.

#29

Very much this. The switch to districts precipitated a large change of mentality on 449 - we finally had a clear metric for “continuous improvement” that we could focus on from year to year, which was not really the case with regionals, and this was a significant motivator for us.

The increased standard-of-play in district champs playoffs works similarly - much more than in the regional system, our students (and mentors!) have a firm idea of the type of functionalities we must develop to produce robots that can compete at that level.

#30

Well, splitting MSC into 4 divisions this year should certainly help with the “too big” event (it was all one division).

#31

Running 204 qual matches (on alternate fields) was quite a spectacle last year, and it strained some resources. This year we will use more fields, straining in a different direction. More real estate and hardware, and more volunteers, but less grueling schedule … we hope.

Anyway, 100 teams in one big event could not be sustained and left no room to grow. 4 divisions can be sustained and 40 teams is a place to grow from.

#32

But the fact that algorithms are having to be crafted to fairly distribute teams to allow for a balanced points distribution seems to point towards the sustainable solution being a split into multiple districts.

It seems to me that Michigan has grown too large for a single district.

#33

Coming from a Regional area, I’m curious as to what exactly is the purpose of Districts. Is it to maximize the amount of people going to Worlds?

I believe someone here was saying how the top 60 of 147 teams in an area qualify for Worlds from ONT District, so roughly 1/3 or 2/5 of all teams qualify. That sounds like it maximizes the total amount of teams going to Worlds​ rather than just focusing on teams of “x” level of performance moving on to Worlds.

The reason I say that is because at a Regional event, roughly 1/7 (6 out of 42) or 1/11 (6 out of 66) of all participants go to Champs. To me, that seems like a more selective process.

#34

Teams go to multiple regionals. The number of total worlds slots is roughly the same between the two districts. The districts tend to award those slots more accurately based on performance due to the vastly higher number of matches.

#35

To the OP question, I would say it makes it easier for a low resource team to make it to CMP, but definitely less random or based on luck.
We are a small, low resource team from a rural area with little STEM support. But our group of students works very hard all season long and it has paid off in the last few years. This has allowed us to grow and get access to more students and resources.
Our students have learned a lot through upgrading the robot after each event and seeing how the changes either worked or did not - better feedback. We competed in two district events and now DCMP, with 46 matches being played at pretty low cost for FRC. That experience has been great and if we hadn’t qualified for CMP, I would still call the season a success.
Truthfully, I have not competed in a regional format but I can’t imagine trading Districts for Regionals in any way. Hard work and perseverance pays off which is a lesson I want all of our students to learn and take with them.

#36

60 teams from ONT qualify for the DCMP, only 29 qualify for the World Championship. So roughly 20% of the teams from a district qualify for Worlds. I’m not sure if the point of districts is to maximize the amount of teams going to worlds. The first big thing about districts is that it increases the amount of matches played for most teams as they get to attend more events. The other purpose of districts is that it allows for the strongest teams to attend worlds, even if they never won an event. A bit of bad luck at a regional could keep the best teams from winning the event, and thus not making it to worlds. As long as a team performs well consistently at district events, there is a very good chance of them making it to worlds.

#37

I think this point is debatable. Few are going to argue against additional experience helping teams improve their robot, but there’s also stories of CMP trips providing both tangible and intangible benefits for teams beyond the additional playing time. Plenty of teams use such trips to gain additional recognition and support from their school and local communities, which in turn can help the team grow in future years.

#38

When I first heard about the district model, I didn’t like the idea. It seemed like one more obstacle in the way of getting to World Champs. I want to be Team A! I want to just win one event and get my ticket to [strike]St. Louis[/strike]Detroit!

Having now experienced it, I like the district model. We’re not Team A. It would be many years before we could grow the resources, skill, and collective knowledge to become Team A. During which time we would have to go to regional events, continue to not win, and hope that Team A picks us to bring with them.

We can, however, most definitely be Team B. There’s a clearer path for success as Team B. We learned what kind of improvements are feasible between events. We played a lot more matches. We earned X district points this year. Next year we can aim to do even better.

There are aspects of Districts that we don’t like as compared to the regional system. The compressed timeline is not fun. Long days that end at 8 or 9pm, making it difficult to squeeze in a team dinner or social event. Not nearly as much opportunity to get practice matches, while also scrambling to reflash your radio, get inspected, etc. But in the long run I see the benefit.

#39

You are right, Sean. Of course.

Society gets the best of that which we celebrate.

Repeated practice tests ideas and strengthens competitors.

These two ideas need not exclude each other.

#40

To clarify, there are 147 teams in the Ontario District. 60 of those teams qualified to play at our DCMP this weekend.

Of those 60 teams, 29 will advance to World Championship.