Do WCP Greyt Products Violate R12?

#1

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These seem to me to all be in violation of R12:

“No individual, non-KOP item or software shall have a Fair Market Value that exceeds $500 USD.
The total cost of COMPONENTS purchased in bulk may exceed $500 USD as long as the cost of an
individual COMPONENT does not exceed $500 USD.”

In the blue box, the rule also states:

“In summary, if a VENDOR sells a system or a kit, a team must use the entire system/kit
Fair Market Value and not the value of its COMPONENT pieces.”

I assume that WCP wouldn’t be offering kits clearly intended for FIRST that aren’t legal, but I don’t see why these wouldn’t be considered kits that are over $500. Is there something I’m missing here? What makes these allowed?

#2

You don’t need everything selected to use the product, or many teams may not.
For example, the “Turret Gearbox” and “Turret Pre Roller” can be used independently of the main product, and the main product could be used without them.

Edit: and ofc, there are fasteners and common components you may not need as you already have them or an equivalent.

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#3

While the cost with all boxes ticked may exceed 500$, the “Other Required products” section sells standard sized raw materials- in excess of the required amount. This raw stock is neither a COMPONENT nor part of the kit, exempting it from the price total.

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#4

On a separate note this seems to violate I1: The ROBOT and its MAJOR MECHANISMS must be built by the FIRST Robotics Competition team. However, I can purchase this and then assemble this major mechanism. This is not built by me and seems to be not a team-built mechanism.

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#5

Bummer about the AM14U4

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#6

Another relevant part of the rule:

“If the modules are designed to assemble into a single configuration, and the assembly is
functional in only that configuration, then the total cost of the complete assembly
including all modules must fit within the price constraints defined in R12.”

So even if you already have some of the parts, I would interpret this as still requiring the team to count those parts in the cost of the kit.

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#7

Yep, can’t use the KOP chassis this year. Oh well.

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#8

FIRST clarified this in the Q&A - basically they said that since the kit is assembled by the team, it still counts as being made by the team.

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#9

I’m pretty sure if you crunched the numbers on the actual raw material used, the price would be under $500. There’s a reason all of them are just barely over the limit.

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#10

That seems to be aimed at, say, a swerve drive with all custom parts. A wheel mount with non-standard spaced holes is specifically designed to interface with a turning plate and it would be unreasonable to count them as different COTs parts. These products have several “configurations” where different COTS parts and fasteners can be used without issue, like how the elevator can use various different lengths, sizes, or materials of tube supplied by the team.

#11

WCP says that those parts are all required for the kit to work - I don’t see how that’s not part of the kit, especially with the “functional in only that configuration” clause of the rule.

#12

I agree that some of them have multiple functional configurations (e.g. the turret doesn’t need the pre-rollers) but I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say that the shooter doesn’t require the gearbox and motor since you can buy them separately.

#13

Use any motor you like

#14

Those are all other COTs parts and could very reasonably be used in any other mechanism.

It doesn’t, you could easily use your own and the motor could be used anywhere else.
The “gearbox” also isn’t really a gearbox, it’s just a handful of COTs parts attached to the main item in different ways.

#15

By that argument, can’t you say that any kit is legal no matter how expensive it is because you can replace any part of it with something else?

#16

Go replace a part of a VexPro ballshifter with a part from an AndyMark Evo shifter and get back to us. It’s about assemblies that are specifically designed to work with certain parts and don’t make sense individually.

#17

The rule specifically says that you can’t count the prices of the individual COTS parts rather than the price of the kit:

Example 2: VENDOR B sells a robotic arm assembly that the team wants to use.
However, it costs $700 USD, so they cannot use it. The VENDOR sells the “hand”,
“wrist”, and “arm” as separate assemblies, for $200 USD each. A team wishes to
purchase the three items separately, then reassemble them. This would not be legal, as
they are really buying and using the entire assembly, which has a Fair Market Value of
$700 USD.

#18

I’d say maybe so? These kits are more like curated collections with some custom parts. You are paying standard rates for the cots stuff, and paying extra for the value of the custom designed and manufactured plates. You could get the standard stuff other places if you like, but they’ve curated it for you. All that wcp had to do for things like motors was include an “add this” button for your convenience. Really it’s the same process I have used for years with their gearboxes. I sometimes choose just the base kit, and sometimes I buy gears if I don’t already have them, and I’ve never chosen to add the motors since I get those elsewhere or already have them. If I kitted out every gearbox, and had to account for the fact that I need two to drive my robot, I’d be way over that $500 limit, man

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#19

If you look at it that way, wouldn’t Example 2 given in the rules be allowed?

#20

I’m not sure you need a 32"x 72" sheet of TINTED polycarb for a shooter (cost: $84), but I haven’t exactly poured over the CAD

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