Does Anyone Know The Answer????

FIRST General Forum
1

Posted by Jeff Bazydlo, Other on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro Inc…

Posted on 3/29/99 6:22 PM MST

Does anyone know what the statistics per regional have been, let me expand
this thought. Has there been 82 matches per competition or not, I guess
what I am asking for is the logistics of each one. For example does the
number of matches equal, the teams times something else, i am just a little
puzzled so if anyone has some answers maybe we can figure out how many matches
there will actually be!

Next Jon from team 190 that was great I only wish there was a third field,
because then there would be 12 teams on deck and 12 actually playing,
we would really have enough matches then, I think?

If anyone has a possible formula for figuring the numbers out, please post
a reply so that I may see why people have determined that there will only
be 4 matches, when I thought FIRST said that there will be at least 5. And I know there must be a formula because every regional had a different number
of Q-matches. So in closing send me a email or post a reply if you have
an answer or a formula!

                     Jeff Bazydlo
                     Team #126
                     GAEL FORCE
2

Posted by Mike Kulibaba, Student on team #88, TJ², from Bridgewater-Raynham Regional and Johnson and Johnson.

Posted on 3/29/99 7:42 PM MST

In Reply to: Does Anyone Know The Answer??? posted by Jeff Bazydlo on 3/29/99 6:22 PM MST:

Well I know at the Johnson and Johnson regional in New Jersey there were 90 qualifying matches because there were 36 teams and 10 qualifying matches for each team. If you take the number of teams(36) divide by 4 for the amount of teams that go per round, then times it by the number of qualifying matches each team has and you will get the amount of matches. Atleast that is how it works for me. As another example if there are 220 teams in Florida divide that by 4 and you get 55 and then you times that by 4 because that is how qualifying matches each team has means there will have to be 220 qualifying matches. Does this sound right to everyone!

3

Posted by Jeff Bazydlo, Other on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro Inc…

Posted on 3/29/99 8:33 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Does Anyone Know The Answer??? posted by Mike Kulibaba on 3/29/99 7:42 PM MST:

I think this is a good formula, I just want to know what happens if there are
two stages 8 teams, that changes it, and if we are surprised by a third stage
12 teams on a once theoretically!

Thank you for your help Mike! and Good Luck in Florida!

Jeff Bazydlo
Team #126
Gael Force

4

Posted by Mike Kulibaba, Student on team #88, TJ², from Bridgewater-Raynham Regional and Johnson and Johnson.

Posted on 3/29/99 9:17 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Does Anyone Know The Answer??? posted by Jeff Bazydlo on 3/29/99 8:33 PM MST:

: I think this is a good formula, I just want to know what happens if there are
: two stages 8 teams, that changes it, and if we are surprised by a third stage
: 12 teams on a once theoretically!

I’ll use random numbers for how many teams cause I’m not exactly sure how many teams are coming.

Well let’s say there are 224 teams we’ll divide that by 8 for the 8 teams that go at one time.(26) then take that number and times it by 4 for the number of quilifying matches and you get 104 total qualifying matches! If there are 3 arenas(12 teams)and 228 teams, take 228 and divide it by 12 becaue ther are 12 teams going on at once(19)and then times that by 4 and you get 76 matches. I can go on if there are 4 stages but that isn’t much of a possibility.

Good luck to you and your team Jeff and you will definately see me in Florida

Mike Kulibaba Team 88 TJ²

5

Posted by Jerry Eckert, Engineer on team #140 from Tyngsboro, MA High School and New England Prototype/Brooks Automation.

Posted on 3/30/99 7:37 AM MST

In Reply to: Re: Does Anyone Know The Answer??? posted by Mike Kulibaba on 3/29/99 9:17 PM MST:

: : I think this is a good formula, I just want to know what happens if there are
: : two stages 8 teams, that changes it, and if we are surprised by a third stage
: : 12 teams on a once theoretically!

: I’ll use random numbers for how many teams cause I’m not exactly sure how many teams are coming.

: Well let’s say there are 224 teams we’ll divide that by 8 for the 8 teams that go at one time.(26) then take that number and times it by 4 for the number of quilifying matches and you get 104 total qualifying matches! If there are 3 arenas(12 teams)and 228 teams, take 228 and divide it by 12 becaue ther are 12 teams going on at once(19)and then times that by 4 and you get 76 matches. I can go on if there are 4 stages but that isn’t much of a possibility.

While I had no part in scheduling the qualifying rounds, I believe
you’re looking at the problem backwards. The number of qualifying
matches per team was probably dervived from the number of qualifying
matches which can be run given the resources available, not vice versa.

As an example:

At the Hartford regional there were 82 qualifying matches. Assuming
the same amount of time is available to run qualifying matches at Disney,
that the average time per match is identical, and that two matches are
run simultaneously (two stages), then there can be roughly 82*2=164
total qualifying matches. Assuming 224 teams participate (using the
same number as above), there can be 164/(224/4) = 2.93 matches per team.

If you desire more matches per team then you modify the input parameters.
For example, allow more time for qualifying matches, reduce the time/match
(e.g., by overlapping running of one match with scoring of the previous
match), or running more matches simultaneously.

- Jerry
6

Posted by Jerry Eckert, Engineer on team #140 from Tyngsboro, MA High School and New England Prototype/Brooks Automation.

Posted on 3/29/99 8:42 PM MST

In Reply to: Does Anyone Know The Answer??? posted by Jeff Bazydlo on 3/29/99 6:22 PM MST:

My guess is they start by figuring out how many matches they have time
for based on the average time per match and the number running concurrently.
Then divide by (number of teams competing/4) to get the number of qual
matches per team. In the event of a non-integer result the total number
of matches can be adjusted as required.

In Hartford there were 82 qualifying matches (8/team).

- Jerry

: Does anyone know what the statistics per regional have been, let me expand
: this thought. Has there been 82 matches per competition or not, I guess
: what I am asking for is the logistics of each one. For example does the
: number of matches equal, the teams times something else, i am just a little
: puzzled so if anyone has some answers maybe we can figure out how many matches
: there will actually be!

: Next Jon from team 190 that was great I only wish there was a third field,
: because then there would be 12 teams on deck and 12 actually playing,
: we would really have enough matches then, I think?

: If anyone has a possible formula for figuring the numbers out, please post
: a reply so that I may see why people have determined that there will only
: be 4 matches, when I thought FIRST said that there will be at least 5. And I know there must be a formula because every regional had a different number
: of Q-matches. So in closing send me a email or post a reply if you have
: an answer or a formula!

:
: Jeff Bazydlo
: Team #126
: GAEL FORCE

7

Posted by Jeff Bazydlo, Other on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro Inc…

Posted on 3/30/99 9:58 AM MST

In Reply to: Does Anyone Know The Answer??? posted by Jeff Bazydlo on 3/29/99 6:22 PM MST:

I have taken the several ideas from all of you guys and come up with some
interesting information. There are a couple of facts we know 1. there are
roughly 220 teams in Florida, 2. There is two stages and 8 teams going at once.

So now we take situation 1. : If we take the rumored number of qualifying
matches 4 per team, and we divide the number of teams 220 by 8 we get 27.5
then multiply by 4 the matches and we get 110 qualifying matches!
But does this seem right? I would think that do to the fact of two stages
there would be at least 160 matches because every regional had at least 80,
qualifying mathes!

So now situation 2. : If take an average regional number of matche say 85,
(Does anyone have all the regional Q-match numbers so we can make this right)
Take the 85 and double it you get 170 then take the number of teams divided
by 8 (220/8=27.5) And take (170/27.5) you get 6.1 Q-matches per team, which
is different than the 4 we think we might actually get! Well now I know
that some of you are thinking 170 matches we don’t have time for that, but do
we two stages, double the matches and double the amount of teams going into
the final bracket. It does work out, and I hope that is what happens. Oh and
finally for that 6.1, I know it isn’t even but if you play with the 170
say (168,169,171,172) I think you will eventually get an even 6. Which
proves we can have 6 matches or at least 5 just I don’t want only 4!

Anybody have anything to say about this, I would like to hear it!

Jeff Bazydlo
Team #126
GAEL FORCE

8

Posted by Jerry Eckert, Engineer on team #140 from Tyngsboro, MA High School and New England Prototype/Brooks Automation.

Posted on 3/30/99 10:17 AM MST

In Reply to: I think I have some answers!!! posted by Jeff Bazydlo on 3/30/99 9:58 AM MST:

Jeff,

There is an error in your logic:

: So now situation 2. : If take an average regional number of matche say 85,
: (Does anyone have all the regional Q-match numbers so we can make this right)
: Take the 85 and double it you get 170 then take the number of teams divided
: by 8 (220/8=27.5)

You need to divide by 4 (the number of teams in each match), not 8.

: And take (170/27.5) you get 6.1 Q-matches per team, which
: is different than the 4 we think we might actually get!

Correcting for the error above, the result is (approximately) 3, not 6.

- Jerry
9

Posted by Jeff Bazydlo, Other on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro Inc…

Posted on 3/30/99 10:23 AM MST

In Reply to: Re: I think I have some answers!!! posted by Jerry Eckert on 3/30/99 10:17 AM MST:

: Jeff,

: There is an error in your logic:

: : So now situation 2. : If take an average regional number of matche say 85,
: : (Does anyone have all the regional Q-match numbers so we can make this right)
: : Take the 85 and double it you get 170 then take the number of teams divided
: : by 8 (220/8=27.5)

: You need to divide by 4 (the number of teams in each match), not 8.

: : And take (170/27.5) you get 6.1 Q-matches per team, which
: : is different than the 4 we think we might actually get!

: Correcting for the error above, the result is (approximately) 3, not 6.

: - Jerry

But is there because there will be 8 teams running 2 matches at a time, 1 per
stage. I have only one question what is the 4 from, I am just wondering
because I would think that you would have 8 not 4. Let me know!

Jeff

10

Posted by Jerry Eckert, Engineer on team #140 from Tyngsboro, MA High School and New England Prototype/Brooks Automation.

Posted on 3/30/99 10:33 AM MST

In Reply to: Re: I think I have some answers!!! posted by Jeff Bazydlo on 3/30/99 10:23 AM MST:

: : Jeff,

: : There is an error in your logic:

: : : So now situation 2. : If take an average regional number of matche say 85,
: : : (Does anyone have all the regional Q-match numbers so we can make this right)
: : : Take the 85 and double it you get 170 then take the number of teams divided
: : : by 8 (220/8=27.5)

: : You need to divide by 4 (the number of teams in each match), not 8.

: : : And take (170/27.5) you get 6.1 Q-matches per team, which
: : : is different than the 4 we think we might actually get!

: : Correcting for the error above, the result is (approximately) 3, not 6.

: : - Jerry

: But is there because there will be 8 teams running 2 matches at a time, 1 per
: stage. I have only one question what is the 4 from, I am just wondering
: because I would think that you would have 8 not 4. Let me know!

You already adjusted for that by doubling the number of matches. Each
match will still have only 4 teams participating.

- Jerry
11

Posted by Jeff Bazydlo, Other on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro Inc…

Posted on 3/30/99 11:55 AM MST

In Reply to: Re: I think I have some answers!!! posted by Jerry Eckert on 3/30/99 10:33 AM MST:

O.K. Let me see if I have this straight, it finally hit me what you were
saying Jerry. Let’s say there are 220 teams, every team has to run 4 matches.
But first how many matches does it take to get every team to run 1. It takes
55 right (220/4) So therefore to run 4 each it would take 220 mathes, to run
3 it would take 165 matches. Am I finally on the right track… Because
in Hartford there were 41 teams divided by 4 = 10.25 and take any number
and multiply it by the 10.25 to get it close to 85, in this case 8 matches
times 10.25 = 82 total matches.

So I guess now I am a little disappointed because if you think about it you
will only find that 82 doubled is 164 which equals about 3 matches per team,
if there is two stages.

Proof that there should be a third stage at least; if 82 and triple it you
get 246, which would allow us to run basically one regional per stage I think.
Becaue the 246 would allow us to run at least 4-5 Q-matches right?

Does this make more sense?

Jeff Bazydlo
Team #126
GAEL FORCE

12

Posted by Jerry Eckert, Engineer on team #140 from Tyngsboro, MA High School and New England Prototype/Brooks Automation.

Posted on 3/30/99 12:14 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: I think I have some answers!!! posted by Jeff Bazydlo on 3/30/99 11:55 AM MST:

You’ve got it, now!

: Proof that there should be a third stage at least; if 82 and triple it you
: get 246, which would allow us to run basically one regional per stage I think.
: Becaue the 246 would allow us to run at least 4-5 Q-matches right?

With 220 teams, 246 qual matches would be 4.5 per team.

That doesn’t necessarily prove there will be a third stage. There are
other ways to increase the total numbe of qual matches: longer hours
or decreased time per match (for example, by overlapping matches on
one field with scoring on the adjacent field).

- Jerry
13

Posted by Jon, Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Mass Academy of Math and Science and Worcester Polytechnic Institute.

Posted on 3/30/99 3:57 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: I think I have some answers!!! posted by Jerry Eckert on 3/30/99 12:14 PM MST:

: You’ve got it, now!

: : Proof that there should be a third stage at least; if 82 and triple it you
: : get 246, which would allow us to run basically one regional per stage I think.
: : Becaue the 246 would allow us to run at least 4-5 Q-matches right?

: With 220 teams, 246 qual matches would be 4.5 per team.

: That doesn’t necessarily prove there will be a third stage. There are
: other ways to increase the total numbe of qual matches: longer hours
: or decreased time per match (for example, by overlapping matches on
: one field with scoring on the adjacent field).

: - Jerry

It seems like the lights have been turned on all over the place because i got a little while ago and then read that Jeff got it…
ok, so the two stage thing isn’t very cool, continuing 3 stages would be better but who knows…

jon

14

Posted by Jon, Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Mass Academy of Math and Science and Worcester Polytechnic Institute.

Posted on 3/30/99 11:49 AM MST

In Reply to: I think I have some answers!!! posted by Jeff Bazydlo on 3/30/99 9:58 AM MST:

Ok, here’s another way to look at it…
we are guessing about 220 teams at the nationals, and we are working under the assumption that there will be 2 stages each with 2 fields on it,therefore we have come to the conclusion that 8 teams should be playing at one point and that we can reasonably expect about twice as many Qmatches as at the regionals
for a total close to 170.
this leads into my view:

220 teams / 8 teams per match = 27.5 MPRs (Matches per total Roster), this is the number of matches needed for all the teams to play once (mathematically speaking, of course).
Jeff’s theory says that we should get about 6 matches, and 27.5 MPRs * 6 (guessed matches) = 165 matches total!
that’s pretty close to the ideal ‘2X fields = 2X QMs’ argument

after turning this in my head so many times i can’t tell if i’ve come up with some definitive results or if i’m just twisting the numbers to fit…

15

Posted by Jerry Eckert, Engineer on team #140 from Tyngsboro, MA High School and New England Prototype/Brooks Automation.

Posted on 3/30/99 12:07 PM MST

In Reply to: Is this real evidence or just coincidental? posted by Jon on 3/30/99 11:49 AM MST:

: Ok, here’s another way to look at it…
: we are guessing about 220 teams at the nationals, and we are working under the assumption that there will be 2 stages each with 2 fields on it,therefore we have come to the conclusion that 8 teams should be playing at one point and that we can reasonably expect about twice as many Qmatches as at the regionals
: for a total close to 170.
: this leads into my view:

: 220 teams / 8 teams per match = 27.5 MPRs (Matches per total Roster), this is the number of matches needed for all the teams to play once (mathematically speaking, of course).
: Jeff’s theory says that we should get about 6 matches, and 27.5 MPRs * 6 (guessed matches) = 165 matches total!
: that’s pretty close to the ideal ‘2X fields = 2X QMs’ argument

: after turning this in my head so many times i can’t tell if i’ve come up with some definitive results or if i’m just twisting the numbers to fit…

Jon,

You made the same error Jeff did – only four teams compete in each match.
You’ve included the 2x factor twice: once in calculating the MPR and once
in multiplying the number of fields.

Using Hartford for comparison, there are 2x as many fields and thus 2x
as many total qualifying matches (164 vs. 82). However, there are
over 5x as many teams competing (220 vs. 41). Thus, each team would get
40% (2/5) as many qualifying matches (approx. 3 vs. 8).

N.B. I am NOT claiming there will be only 3 qual matches per team
at Disney, only demonstrating the proper way to scale the
schedule from the regionals to account for multiple simultaneous
matches.

Clear as mud?

- Jerry
16

Posted by Raul, Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.

Posted on 3/30/99 1:45 PM MST

In Reply to: Does Anyone Know The Answer??? posted by Jeff Bazydlo on 3/29/99 6:22 PM MST:

FYI - The official FIRST team list says that 196 teams signed up for the Nationals.
But maybe more teams signed up since then.

17

Posted by Jeff Bazydlo, Other on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro Inc…

Posted on 3/30/99 6:26 PM MST

In Reply to: 220 or 196? posted by Raul on 3/30/99 1:45 PM MST:

Well, I hadn’t noticed by I counted, and on my sheet(s) I had 197 teams
attending this years national competition. I think that with unannounced
arrivals it will be closer to 205, is my guess. So I guess that changes our
figures from above…

Anyone else know that there will only be 197…

Jeff Bazydlo
Team #126
GAEL FORCE

18

Posted by Mike Kulibaba, Student on team #88, TJ², from Bridgewater-Raynham Regional and Johnson and Johnson.

Posted on 3/30/99 4:16 PM MST

In Reply to: Does Anyone Know The Answer??? posted by Jeff Bazydlo on 3/29/99 6:22 PM MST:

Is it definate that each team will have 4 qualifying rounds in Florida???

I just wanted to know if anyone has heard the exact number from FIRST or if FIRST isn’t even sure yet. Thanks for your time

Mike Kulibaba Team 88

19

Posted by Nate Smith, Student on team #74, Holland FIRST Robotics, from Holland High School and Haworth, Inc…

Posted on 3/30/99 4:51 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Does Anyone Know The Answer??? posted by Mike Kulibaba on 3/30/99 4:16 PM MST:

I actually just e-mailed Lori about this earlier today, and I’ll post what I hear as soon as I get a reply.