I agree cause most teams have flights to catch for example we had our flights at 8 pm so if it started later we probably would have missed our flights if we made it to Einstein even if we didn’t qualify for the finals
Not a thing at Michigan State Champs, as we pick the night before.
Totally a thing at worlds though.
Bare minimum is swapping contact info. Usually you have a pretty good idea for the first 3-4 seeds, gets harder the lower you go with captains obviously.
You might click on my team number if you’re going to suggest I don’t know what I’m talking about.
There is no world where all 8 alliances know first picks right now and much less where all of elims alliances are solved as you suggested. It’s a pretty easy fix that helps everyone out, makes it less stressful for newer teams, and prevents 5:30 am wakeups on the 4th day of champs.
I’m not sure why you wouldn’t support this initiative by saying “it’s already happening”. Maybe you’ve been out of the sport too long.
I’m aware, just noticed on some divisions when we were a lower rank and had to take the initiative to set that up. Figured it doesn’t always happen just because everybody thinks someone else will go around and sort out mentor contact info.
We consistently had the the top 3 alliances 100% sorted with burns agreed on (no hard feeling there), and bugged the others to let them know we wouldn’t be picking them, sometimes a bit further. Probably a 60-70% certainty for how exactly the lower 4 seeds will end up (which informs 3rd and 4th robot selection); the remaining 5-2 usually figured out things among themselves and there’s understandingly more hesitancy than with the top 3. The only annoying wild card is when a higher number alliance pulls an unusual first pick for strategic purposes.
I agree that it’s a good idea, those top 2-3 are honestly usually decided before quals end. Just noting this is already occurring and isn’t much a change fundamentally. It’s like an F1 sprint race lol. Definitely a floor-raising move and should lead to more interesting QF matches.
Short answer to the original question: No, there’s no sane reason to Start Saturday of Competition at CMP at 7am.
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A question I found myself asking, more than once, over Thursday, Friday and Saturday, is "What is actually driving this schedule?"
It was clear to me, and quite a few other people I spoke with, that there was some unseen but pseudo rigid schedule constraint that seemed to be dictating the larger event and competition schedule, so much so that the Start Times each day were literally (and I mean, literally) ruining much of the experience for some of us involved.
One especially egregious point is that the schedule CLEARLY did not consider the “All Bags Must be Searched Prior to Entry” requirement - because if it did, then those dictating schedule constraints would have never started anything at 7am, or 7:30am without having the doors open for an entire hour prior - or without allowing “Pre-Screening” to take place for some period of time prior to doors opening, allowing those who arrive early to screen, enter the GRB lobby, but be held outside of the Pit Doors. (And if the latter was the case, then there clearly is some issue here as there physically is not enough space to properly stage attendees after/during screening and/or screen a significant enough volume of them to allow people into the event prior to selections and awards.)
(Note, searching of bags is not the issue here, the schedule not accounting for the ~1hr or so to clear the entry que / search everyone’s bag is the problem)
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Furthermore, the general - “Let’s waste everyone’s time like it’s worthless” on Saturday was somewhere between insensitive and inconsiderate. More than once, we found ourselves (those who were spectators by this point) sitting, twiddling our thumbs, waiting for something to happen, waiting for a speaker, or sitting through / watching something that wasn’t especially relevant - this is especially true when we consider the length of the break between Division Eliminations and the Einstein Tournament - I believe once it all shook out, we were somewhere in the neighborhood of (3) hours (Div. Tournaments ended at 11:30, Einstein didn’t start until 2:30?) - and I’m sure that almost all of us involved would have much rather have traded an hour of Lunch for an 8am start time.
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As others mentioned before, the MC’s were abnormally insensitive to the pressure of picking on the spot, especially when it came to the 5/6/7/8 seed captains. More than once I heard the MC reminding the Captain in question of the need for them to make a decision quickly, almost without the understanding of how dynamic a scenario like division eliminations (Especially this year) can be.
Sure - For the #1 Seed, #2 Seed and those who are locked in the top - it’s Easy to know who you’re picking when you walk out the door the night before. That said, this point is largely irrelevant since this is usually how things go at every event. For seeds in the bottom half, nothing can be 100%, since selections in the top 8 typically pull someone who is in 10th, 11th or 12th into the bottom of the bracket, and it’s absurd of us to expect these teams to have worked out a 3rd and 4th robot with their initial pick ahead of time.
On the specific issue of alliance Selection - The CORRECT thing to do would be to either split the alliance selection in half (Everyone makes their first pick the evening before, then 2nd and 3rd picks the morning of) - or just do the whole damn selection the night before. The only thing that doing the selection the night before will do is give teams breathing room to get creative, come up with strategies, and work out any kinks (like say, hitting the P-Field to run autos together, or trying out climbing) without stressing themselves out.
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To someone else’s point of “Hey, it would be cool to have breaks between elim matches similar to those on Einstein” - Why not spread the Division awards ceremony through the Division Elims Bracket? It’s a hell of a lot better use of a field time out than the YMCA - and it keeps EVERYONE involved in Elims rather than those who are lucky enough to still be in it.
This is one of those things where again, the only downside is that the “Global” Schedule may suffer a bit, but the team experience improves dramatically and we don’t have to watch teams suffer through being under the gun just to appease someone who wants to give a speech that doesn’t even make a single cohesive point.
What was funny was opening the doors at 6:45 and expecting to get all those people past bag checks, and in the stands by 7:00.
Nooooo… please tell me this isn’t real? This can’t be what they actually wrote on a schedule… seriously?
It was probably written by the same people that thought it would be a good idea to let trucks stage for load in at 8, but not let the load in teams on the dock to unload the trucks until ten. You cannot bring your load in team on a truck with only 2 seats.
To their credit, they had us unloading trailers by at least ~8:45 (maybe sooner? not sure) to stage on the dock prior to the 10AM opening, they sent several of us inspectors down to help unload the teams who needed help.
“I’m sorry, but I have to ask you for your choice now…” No, you don’t. That’s not how it works. There is no rule stating a set amount of time to make selections. If FIRST would like to implement one, then they’ll have the right to enforce it. Until then, stop pressuring kids this way.
The kicker for me was when our division MC tried to force a choice by saying “Team XYZ would like to select…” and shoving the microphone in the kid’s face. (From what I remember, the student still waited, I’ll try to go grab it on the webcast archive.) I was under the impression that teams had as long as they needed, with the understanding that we’re all supposed to pick quickly and have lists ready. I get needing the constant reminders at the local level, but at the Championship? Treating students in a high-pressure situation with that kind of attitude is unnecessary.
I have the same beef with DJs who do the jeopardy music or “three hours later” sound effects. This young person is on a stage in front of thousands of people, possibly for the first time ever, and they’re weighted with a decision that affects their, and 2-3 other teams’, experience for the rest of the day. It is simply ridiculous that an event official would treat them like that.
I’m generally really unhappy about this ‘the show is more important than the kids’ experience’ trend we keep seeing. Especially when the show is riddled with issues that diminish the experience.
I don’t mean to derail the thread, so I’ll get back to the point - the 7am start time was extreme. I have no idea why a single day of the event schedule was set up like that; and I am hoping FIRST adjusts it in the future. It was a mess all around.
I would argue that the whole event schedule trended early - though Saturday was the only day that required “Full Team” attendance at 7am (Awards Prior to Alliance Selection, Followed by Alliance Selection) - both Thursday and Friday were early for us - and I’m assuming many other teams as well.
Thursday Morning had the 7:30am to 8:30am Field Calibration Period - which, for many teams meant that some number of people had to be to the GRB when Pits opened at 7am, otherwise there was a chance that we wouldn’t be able to find our way onto the field in that 1 Hour Window.
Friday Morning had Qualification Matches starting at 8am, which again, required us to be in the venue by about 7:30 am, which quickly devolved to another “Be at the GRB for 7am” start for us.
It’s been a while since I competed outside of FMA (or MAR, since in our Hearts, it will always be MAR) - but I don’t really ever remember events “Starting” this early - especially considering that teams should, in general, be showing up ready to play. Back in the Regional Days, I can remember waiting for pits to open at 7am, but at the time, this was almost always because our robot wasn’t done, or we were getting ready to hack it to pieces.
I don’t want to keep complaining about it, though at the same time, I feel like enough discussion in enough places may actually cause someone, somewhere, to see how a few “Small” decisions* dramatically overshadowed what had the potential (at least statistically) to be “The Best” Championship of the current Era.
*In a relative sense - a quick decision to move the schedule an a half hour in one direction or another sounds straightforward in isolation, and is actually extremely complicated when applied to hundreds of teams.
The fact that many hotels are 20 minutes out and don’t start breakfast until 6 or 6:30 AM further compounds the issue. You have kids going too mamy hours without eating.
The Saturday schedule needs to change. I’m getting tired, no pun intended, of the Championship experience taking more and more of our time creating more exhausted kids and making it harder to give them a Championship experience without extreme burnout.
Anyone remember back when nothing happened on Wednesday? Now we are in the event at 8am for badging and unloading crates.
The schedule will be a part of our post survey response and I hope other teams will do. Thank you @Brian_Maher for starting this.
At FiM events, typically pits opened at 8:00. Opening ceremonies started at 10:30 the first day and 9:00 the second day.
At MSC, pits and building opened at 8:00 (only volunteers were allowed in earlier). On Thursday, practice matches started at 8:30 and driver’s meeting was at 11:30. On Friday and Saturday, opening ceremonies started at 9:00 with matches scheduled at 9:30 but they usually actually started at 9:45 or 9:50.
nope
A few thoughts, I largely agree with everyone except:
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Picking the night before is not a good solution. This forces teams to spend the majority of their off-site discussion time with only half the available data. A substantial amount of time should exist between the last qualification matches and eliminations. Picking the night before is forcing scouts to decide on their pick list… in the stands? During matches? Much more so than a few Saturday morning adjustments at a regional.
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While the first two or three alliances often know who is picking who, that isn’t always the case. I was with the first overall pick in our division in 2019 and while we had an inkling, we weren’t formally made aware of anything until about an hour before the selection. Additionally, in that division a few of the top seeds changed due to a scoring issue or replay or something of that nature I can’t remember right now. My point here is that, sometimes the entire night before is actually used by the captains to make their decisions; it’s not always a formality waiting to happen.
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The degree to which the event tries to rush the components of the event which actually affect the students and teams directly, while allowing less consequential components to drag on and outright ignoring the schedule effects of other things (like bag checks above), is downright comical. If it’s going to be at 7 AM, and there’s gonna be an enormous time gap before Einstein (like there is every year), we do not need to shave every last second out of every last pick.
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Does alliance selection have to be live, or does just the ceremony have to be? We may want to consider the merits of a draft occurring off-stage or something, if this really is such a thing. If this problem really needs to be solved, a solution other than “bully children live on a stage in front of thousands of people” probably exists… right?
It was utterly ridiculous - you can easily chop an hour or two from the schedule - NOT alliance selection but random speeches of people no one cares or are listening to. Yes sponsors are a big deal, but actually integrate them into something relevant instead of letting them ramble for 20 minutes when the audience is lost and on their phones. And brutally cut the others who think this is their time to ramble - no one cares, no one is listening do not let them just suck more hours into a day that is already too long.
No one is even talking about the fact that the winners had ZERO recognition. You just won the world championship and FIRST can’t even announce your name and the crew is literally tearing down the fields 10 minutes later. They actually turned the lights out in the stadium while we were trying to pack up our pit. I’m disgusted that FIRST has so little regard for the actual students - I would have much rather seen the lights turn off for most of the rambling speeches during the afternoon.
Some things never change…we’ve noted this for a few years, especially after being in the spot ourselves. Move aside world champions, time to have a speech from the M.I.C. or something about growing the pyramid scheme faster
On the note of schedule crunch in general, I can give every regional an easy half hour per day by cutting the alliance introductions for all but the team’s first match each day. It’s not 1999 where we read off the sponsors of every team every match anyway.
Saturday is always a long day. This year is an huge improvement over the past. Years past we did our pit load out in the dark. Not going to Minute Maid is a huge improvement.
yeah - it’s not as terrible as the incredible ridiculous terrible years is small consolation and zero helpful for those planning events. Our team was legitimately ecstatic to be third in 2018 and avoid the cluster that was minutemaide . my expectations really aren’t that high - just don’t deliberately make things worse - oh wait crazy flashback of our diabetic student who couldn’t get through security at minutemaid - yeah most here have zero clue what civilians are dealing with - I’ll go back to reading as I really do know just how much first gives a damn about the experience of actual real people and teams