Eliminations replay card

Hi CD community,

This idea occurred to me this past weekend when my team ran into a pretty major problem in eliminations. This weekend, we ended up losing communications in our playoff matches due to a fuse being loose. A problem that wasn’t diagnosed until after the match. I know at the end of the day, the team should have noticed the error before the match.

In eliminations, it is clear that every team that is there deserves to belong up there. So what if there was a way to let each alliance perform to the best of their capabilities. What I propose is an eliminations replay card. Similar to calling a timeout or calling in a back up robot this card would allow you to replay a match in certain scenarios. Specifically the one scenario I have got in mind right now would be if communication on the robot is lost for so many seconds of a match a elimination captain can use this card to get a replay. I know this has got its share of problems but it will allow all 8 alliances to play at their peak level. What are your thoughts?

We might need more then a few days for a regional then…

Its an idea that sounds good but think about it more closely.

what if a team made a 6 stack that would have won them the match but they knocked it over. Should they be allowed to have a replay. or what if a team forgets to change their battery and their rio restarts. should they be allowed to get a replay.

or what about the fact that delays are already bad this year replays would just make them worse.

just my 2cents but I see where your coming from.

Those fuses have been pretty annoying this season to the point that I put push fuses in on the pre match checklist right after change the battery and gather tools for transport configuration change.

The control system isnt changing any time soon (for the good I love the new control system) so teams should definitely start to form practices of pushing them in.

Well I mean solely in elimination rounds. I was thinking perhaps just one of these elimination replay cards per elimination alliances. Which could potentially increase the time it takes to finish the regional but at a worst case scenario it would only delay a regional by 8 matches

Mulligan cards? No thanks.

If you need to “push fuses in” more than once per competition, you’re not pushing them in far enough.

Yes those are my concerns as well. One possible way to control them would be to have F.I.R.S.T set the standards on when the card may be used. Thus preventing an alliance from using it for reasons such as a toppled 6 stack.

Interesting idea.

A system could be implemented where each alliance can chose 2 of the 3 cards. This would make teams chose between these three options:

  1. Backup Robot
  2. Timeout
  3. Replay

Where you cannot pick the same card twice and you can only use the 2 selected cards once per event. It might shake up elims a bit and add another element of strategy. Just an idea to throw in the mix.

well We dont need to push them in but I just have it on the list to make sure. It takes 3 seconds and as you can see can save a whole regional.

There would definitely need to be some way to make sure that an alliance is calling a replay for a valid reason.
If they can call them whenever, then this power could be abused.
For example, if red has an unusually high-scoring match during playoffs, then blue could call a replay in hopes of bringing red down.

They have set the standards. Replays only occur after a field fault.

That can lead to further problems, though, because even if it was only allowed to be used in case of a communication issue, it would be difficult to differentiate between a legitimate problem and a team pressing the “reboot roboRIO” button to allow a replay after they knocked over a stack.

That’s the purpose of best 2 out of 3.

If you want one and done, then a replay might be ok. But, it is likely the loosing team will be requesting the replay for whatever reason. So, you end up back at best 2 out of 3 with no replay (A looses and requests a replay, B looses the 2nd game, so requests a replay, now you are down to the 3rd match - winner take all).

As a robot inspector this year, I was actually told by the LRI at the event to specifically check the fuses when examining a team’s PDP to ensure that they’re pushed in all the way. This is probably the best way to prevent this issue from occurring.

As for a replay, you also have to remember that there’s 3 teams on the other end of the field that might not want one.

Yes that prevents such a scenario in a regular FRC game. But in a game based solely on averages one bad round might be enough to knock you out of the eliminations. I’m not saying its not recoverable but it makes it very unlikely.

What if a team is having a bad match so they decide to pull the Ethernet cord mid match causing them to “loose communications” should they get a replay for that. No.

Of course they don’t deserve a replay for that. Such a scenario seems to be against the spirit of F.I.R.S.T. I’m pretty sure the FMS can detect which stations are plugged in and which aren’t.

In any normal year where it is 2 out of 3 this is never gonna happen. If you have any issues and completely fail one match you have two more to make up for it. Either way, error or not, the best alliance is still going to win.

Specifically for this year, I still believe it’s not reasonable. One of the goals of FIRST is to give a head start to the real world and the jobs you’ll have. How many times in your career will you get the chance to redo a major project because of a simple error? In the build season or production phase it might be acceptable. However, during competitions or once a product is on the market, you have to roll with what you got. If something fails, the best you can do is roll with the punches and be better prepared for the future.

Speaking from experience I know just how frustrating this can be. It cost me what could’ve been the biggest win of my FRC career. It also taught me an important lesson. Murphy’s Law will always apply. Our team should’ve just designed a better robot. Then again, hindsight is 20/20…

I suppose saying days was an exaggeration of the situation but the point still stands that 8 replayed matches is still a fairly large chunk of time for everyone involved.
Also shout out to staff and volunteers for being able to keep pace at these events for such extended periods of time.

Part of FRC is to introduce you to how engineering is in real life: you can’t use a redo card if you’re landing something on the moon.

this is also unfair to the other teams, who successfully beat you, in part because they remembered to tighten every screw, plug in all the batteries, make sure their pneumatics were well built (cough cough my team in 2012 cough cough).

FRC, especially recycle rush, is about having the robot best made for the challenge win, and that includes durability (in my opinion anyways)

Our team doesn’t build the best robot each year, but we are known for being a reliable team - robot works, and drivers can drive.

Mulligans are good for teams with a high variance, and penalizes teams with low variance.