Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams

FIRST General Forum
#33

Two things to (hopefully) be of help.

  1. FIRST announced grants today for $1000 to new or veteran teams. Your primary contact should have the details, but the basics are you have to apply for the grant, and you have to use it as part of your entry fee for 1 regional. You can only be going to one regional - and not the championships.
    The focus seems to be on struggling teams and I think it is a great move by FIRST.

  2. Everyone on Team 234 is expected to find a $250 sponsor. Some find more than one, some can’t get any, but most are able. This does several things - it gets all students out talking about and promoting the program and explaining what it is, it introduces many new people to FIRST, it gets additional ‘ownership’ in the team because everyone has done something extra to help with funding, and, it helps finance the team. Sponsors get their names on our T-shirts or on plaques, depending on what we do each season. In the fall, everyone who supported us gets a wall certificate, team photo or something else as out Thank You to display. Four small sponsors like this covers the $1000 increase in the entry fee. It is also kinda cool to go into a local business and see a team picture on the wall !

#34

During my time on team 45, 1998 -2002, every year we went to regionals for a small ($50-100/ regional, someone will correct me if I’m wrong) fee, and we paid half of our cost for nationals, normally about 300-400. All of this could be covered out of pocket or through many fundraising opportunities through out the year. Much of the rest of the cost was from our sponsor, which is Delphi, or additional fundraising done beyond our need.

So my question is how do other teams handle this cost?

#35

Then look to Grundy for inspiration. I don’t know the entire story, there are others on here who know it much better then I, but they are your rural America. Grundy is in southwest Virginia, old coal mining county where the mines are closing and people leaving. Not a lot of money there, but Grundy pulls it off.

Another favorite FIRST memory of mine is from Nationals in 2000. One team had their sponsors listed on the back of their shirts. All of them, in about a 15 point font took up the entire vertical length of the shirt. Including Linda’s Lingerie Shop (actual name forgotten, but something like that).

You may have to look in some unconventional places, but there is money to be found.

Wetzel

#36

Not for all of them…

Team 20 has been through quite a few sponsors.
In their case, the reason they survived is the INCREDIBLE dedication of one teacher, and a few community volunteer engineers.

If you’re willing to work for something. You can do anything.

Kudos to Paul Kane.
13 years down, and still going strong.

John

#37

I’ll note, again, that Long Island is hardly rural. Brief research reveals that Nassau and Suffolk counties alone have a population of 2.7 million between them. That isn’t counting Brooklyn and Queens. We’ll assume 10 of your teams are in Suffolk, however. That’s a population of 1.4 million in an area of 911 sq. mi. Given 10 teams, that’s a base of 140,000 people per team in an area of 91 sq. mi.

Your numbers are probably skewed. I really doubt that the population of Long Island is that evenly distrubuted. In fact it can’t be. The majority of people probably reside closer to Nassau than Suffolk.

As an aside, I note that it appears the median houshold income around Long Island is about twice that of Ponca City.
That mainly relates to the fact that everything in Long Island is twice as expensive as it is in Ponca City. It’s proximity to the city makes it the prime place for every single bussiness to rip everyone off. Also the only major company (Lockhead Martin??) on Long Island is sponsoring all of the teams last I knew.

#38

the entrance fee isn’t the problem for us… microsoft have generously given us the entree fee for the last 3 years… however, the cost is going up every year. In 2 years we will probably not compete as each person will have to pay and extra £150 (~$270) for visa’s . When your taking about 30 people with £150 each thats an extra £4500 pounds (which is more than the entry fee . . . . . (~$8,140)) so we will most likely not compete then (unless they host a regional here in europe / uk)

#39

I can see where that would be problem. What you could do is work to create enough teams in Hawaii that there is a base for a Hawaii regional. :> Then maybe convince some well funded teams to attend rather then going to Nationals or somewhere else that involves travel.

I for one would volunteer at that regional.

#40

My grandparents are looking to go back to Oahu for a reunion this fall and found $350 round trip tickets on Continental. From the east coast.

If you could cut airfare almost in half, would you bring some aloha way east? :slight_smile:

(As an aside, the team from Mililani , where I happened to do some growing, traded me a pineapple for a some Krispy Kremes. That was the best ever.)

Wetzel

#41

Using the cheapest tickets i can find currently, its going ot cost us $**325 **each way (so thats $650 per student) (using cheapest flights, but excluding group discount)

using our estimate of £850 / person ,( thats $1,500 ) without the sponsorship. Currently we are looking at £350-400 (**$630-725)**a person if we raise the expected amount and take into account everything we can think of … if only the airline would sponsor us . . .

#42

You’re correct, the population isn’t that evenly distributed. Suffolk county is less densely populated than Nassau. It has 1.3 million people in just 287 sq. mi. So a team would only have to cover 28.7 sq. mi. instead of 90 something. Also, a $70K salary in Suffolk is about equivalent to a $40K salary in a Ponca City kinda of area. (Suffolk, NY --> Altus, OK via salary.com) So people in Suffolk are making about 33% more than those in Ponca City, relatively.

Also, I am well aware that FIRST has many success stories among rural and inner-city teams. An important point to remember if that we mostly hear just from the success stories. We hear from the Ponca City and Grundy teams that work their tails off each year to get enough funding to compete and succeed at it. We don’t typically hear from teams that can’t raise enough funds or the teams that aren’t formed at all because there isn’t $10K of funding in their area.

Finally, to those of you that have team members pay for travel expenses, fundraise, etc, if that’s what it takes for your team to make it and your team is okay with that, then that’s great. My team thinks that our purpose is to inspire the students and community to be interested in science and engineering. We don’t think that sending students door to door to raise funding is a good way to do this, nor is it conducive to our students schoolwork. Our main sponsor is very interested in the welfare of our students, and would actually be upset if we had then doing major amounts of fundraising or if they had to pay their way to a competition. That’s our philosophy, and that’s where my arguments are coming from.

#43

This is getting REALLY ugly now guys, I think we might need Lavery to comment on this or some other FIRST official.

#44

And for the last time I’ll say this: FIRST does stand for “For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology.” However, integral parts of science and technology are finding funding to pursue science and technology, that’s part of the competition, part of preparing high school students for what the real world will be like. Rarely do you just get all the money and resources you need to accomplish a project. Due to this, my former team, rather unknowingly, began to work in fundraising as a major portion for thte club, and I know it’s definitely given me, and many of the other students on the team, and much better view of how the world works.

Bottom line, if you’re willing to rely on your one main sponsor, that’s great, but what happens when they fold? What happens when that main sponsor is gone? Will your team still be around, because students have been going to every single business in town, asking for small donations? As Jeff said, there are some teams that get their money from every store in town, a little bit from each one, and have a sponsors list that can barely fit on the back of a shirt! If they can get the money they need by going, effectively, door to door, and then go and build a robot, I think the kids on that team are doing amazing, and sure, it’s probably not conducive to their schoolwork, but it’ll definitely help them gain a broader understanding of how the world works, and honestly, I find that a lot more important than knowing something like L’Hopitals Rule.

#45

I don’t see it getting ugly. There is no name calling or flaming. There is two different viewpoints, and even understanding that they do it differently, “if that’s what it takes for your team to make it and your team is okay with that, then that’s great”

One is that FIRST students shouldn’t have to spend a lot of time fundraising. They don’t see going door-to-door to fundraise, or coming up with money from their own pocket is not a good way to get students and the community excited in science and technology and takes away from homework time.

Another is that FIRST is not just a robot building competition and that it is also a business competition to follow the ‘real world’. Research\project funding can be hard to come by, and this is a taste of what is to come and preparation for it.

Wetzel

#46

I think this is healthy discussion.

It is important for young people to discover cost of living per capita, and this discussion is making us think about all aspects. This discussion is also demonstrating that FIRST is about a lot more than just building a robot—team dynamics are complex and students must learn how to solve problems of all types.

Just remember that it isn’t supposed to be personal attacks…

My hopes (and purpose) of starting this discussion is that innovative solutions can be presented, and that various aspects of team finances can be learned.

In other words, walk a mile in another person’s financial shoes. The main theme of these discussions is that many teams are not able to participate due to high costs. One of the main focal points of FIRST is to target minority groups—many minority groups are found in impoverished areas that can’t afford these high entry fees.

FIRST is a great program that builds great kids! Keep up the healthy portions of solving problems, and we will all benefit!

80 days till kick off!

#47

Just like electricity, everyone involved with fundraising takes the path of least resistance. If a major sponsor is available who is willing to take care of the whole bill, that’s what the fundraising team will do. If the fundraising team needs to go door-to-door collecting funds that’s what they will do.

No one chooses the path that’s most difficult. Often times it has to do with a poor economy in their area or a lack of major sponsors in their area.

It doesn’t make a team better if they have just one sponsor or if they have 100 sponsors. However, you should commend a team who struggled to pay the bill with a list of sponsors one hundred long for showing their strength, perseverance and love for participating in the FIRST robotics program.

#48

Tonya - I knew I shouldn’t have shown you how to post on Delphi!

Anyway I agree - Foremost to me is for all to remember that FIRST is not really located in Manchester NH but with each student and mentor involved. It is only through us that it exists. Dean’s vision of this taking place in every school in the nation simply cannot be met using the current system. FIRST is about changing the norm - well let’s change the norm within FIRST. Why should we choose to exclude teams based on finances. We should be looking at ways to include every school in the nation. The cost structure as it is now will keep schools away.
I believe we need to

  1. Do a better job of retaining teams. Successful teams will spur the growth - if we don’t take care of what we have, it will be increasing hard to recruit new teams. Kevin - do you have this stat? BTW thanks for mentioning good ol PC right here in the heart of God’s Country.
  2. Can we deliver a similar product with less cost? Are there opportunities to actually lower the rates we charge teams. Think of some Innovative ways we may lower costs and maintain a quality product.
  3. We need to focus more on teaching and mentoring vs. the money aspect of FIRST - I believe everyone should pay their way but it takes a full year to raise funds to travel. This leaves little time to actually fulfill our mission. I spent more time last year fund raising than mentoring - SAD- This year we made a decision we weren’t going to do that. True, money is part of life and business but should not overshadow the opportunity to teach and learn. This aspect makes it hard to convince new sponsors why they should invest their money in this very expensive undertaking. They feel they can’t get the bang for the buck they should. WE also lose about 5 to 10 new team members every year due to the time commitments that is required, I’d rather keep these kids if possible to lower costs.

Anyway love the thoughts and ideas posted here - good stimulating conversation is never a bad thing - it is only when ideas are not exchanged and discussed that people get their feelings hurt or feel left out.

In response to rural vs. metropolitan teams - in some ways we have it better than the larger cities. We receive tremendous support from our community. I hear sometimes the larger city teams have a more difficult time getting sponsors and donations or in-kind work. So yes I do feel blessed to be here in the heartland of America. But I do not enjoy the long drive to Houston (10 hours driving with a bunch of High school students listening to their music AAAAAAH!) but love the folks - for anyone who has never been to the Lone Star Regional it is a must attend - best atmosphere in FIRST.

Ken York
476
Tor Mentor :slight_smile:

#49

Ken,

Great thoughts here. I especially love the attention to “taking care of what we have” as a priority. I’ve been beating that drum for awhile myself.

#50

As commanded, I return with some statistics. I only have team lists for 2002, 2003, and 2004, so that limits my data somewhat. and I was too lazy to get extended data on the '02 and '03 seasons.

Team retention:
'02-'03: 89.5% of teams returning
'03-'04: 89.0% of teams returning

2004 Misc stats:

238 teams attending 2 regionals
20 teams attending 3 regionals
1 team attending 4 regionals

23 rookie teams attending 2 regionals

292 teams attending the championships
24 rookies attending the championships
131 teams attending multiple regionals and the championships
9 rookies attending multiple regionals and the championships

Notes: The “team” counts above are including rookies. Also, the retention numbers are teams that retained their name from the previous year. Teams that changed numbers for whatever reason are not counted.

A mess of mostly useless stats there, since I was sorta asked. Analyze as you wish, but you can atleast throw your fee schedules at them and see what turns up.

#51

Thanks Kevin
I appreciate your taking the torch.
Pretty good retention overall.
Go Cardinals

#52