[EWCP] EWCPcast 7/24/12 - Einstein Report Cast

Greetings CD!

You asked for it and we listened. The cast is back from a brief summer hiatus to discuss the findings of the Einstein Report. The cast is scheduled for Tuesday, July 24th, in our regular 9pm Talkshoe time slot.

Due to the sensitive nature of this cast, we do have a request for cast participants (both in call and in chat.) We ask that no one openly identify (or speculate the identity of) the individual (or his or her team) responsible for the Einstein faults or the individual’s potential motives. This cast is an instructional/informational cast to help people better digest the technical information provided in the report and to share with everyone the perspective of the attendees of the proceedings.

Lastly, if there is interest in an IRI Recap Cast, please contact our resident lackey, Andrew Schreiber. The summer cast schedule is empty unless people specifically request casts. We will pick up a more regular cast schedule in the fall.

Enjoy your summer everyone!

Jack

Live now.

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/webClient.jsp?masterId=98466&cmd=wc

Live now!

http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-98466/TS-648684.mp3
Chat Log

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<Guest 10> MIght not hurt to put a reminder of this on chief
<schreiaj> We did, but you can bump the thread
<Meredith16> I bumped...
<IndySam> bumpety
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<Guest 6> Friday night I believe
<Meredith16> The night before - Friday.
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<Kristian25> Yup, it's on page 5 of the report
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<Meredith16> They were told about the de-auth attack
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<Meredith16> They were shocked as well
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<apalrd> but you can still ping through the semi-dead network
<schreiaj> Andrew, Correct
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<Guest 15> is this a technical discussion?
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<schreiaj> It can be if you'd like us to go into a little more detail
<GabeSalas> tech & personal feedback
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<Guest 15> I'm sorry i just joined in so I dont know if this was covered, but what exactly is a dauth (sp?) attack?
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<Meredith16> failed authentication on the wireless system that caused robots to disconnect from the field
<apalrd> deauth is when a rogue client sends "deauth" frames to a client, which then thinks it is no longer authenticated on the network and has to ask the AP
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<Meredith16> ^what he said 
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<Meredith16> Basically the individual was trying to show that our alliance (25, 180, 16) was attacking 118
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<Meredith16> It was not a mistake, Andrew.
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<schreiaj> It was poor judgement by the person.
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<schreiaj> Something something, immaturity... Heaven knows I've made my share of screw ups, I can't condemn someone else.
<GabeSalas> ^Agree
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<Meredith16> My drivers were upset when they realized we were going to be red and asked what we were going to do. I said, "put on the red bumpers and win."
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<GabeSalas> @Meredith16 That is all anyone can do in that situation.
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<Guest 15> In you professional opinion, what is the actual solution to make the deauth attacks not happen again?
<apalrd> what happened on Einstein was NOT a deauth attack
<Guest 15> Just change router?
<apalrd> a deauth attach requires at least lower-level hardware access than a normal phone or laptop provides without special software
<Guest 15> Oh, okay
<apalrd> FCA can be done with anything that supports 802.11N on 5ghz
<Guest 6> "special software" being a free download of backtrack
<Guest 6> but yes, you would need monitor mode for deauth
<apalrd> yeah, but you don't just have laptops open next to Einstein
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<apalrd> it's still something that the majority of people don't have
<Guest 6> true
<apalrd> probably the client MAC's and timestamps
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<stevend223> is the chat pretty much done? looks like now many people here
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<GabeSalas> @stevend223 Not yet, probably halfway through or so
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<Guest 15> Probably not many people here because too many were focused on the non-technical discussion
<Guest 15> too many people just want to discuss the witch hunt
<GabeSalas> likely
<apalrd> I have heard rumors that it happened at other events, but I can't really say anything about it
<stevend223> week 4 i believe was the update
<schreiaj> Correct
<GabeSalas> I believe you are correct
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<stevend223> 
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<Guest 15> Can we go back to IFI?
<apalrd> I agree exactly
<IndySam> n
<GabeSalas> sure - go to VEX
<IndySam> no
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<Stogi> Need a parody of Gotye for IFI
<apalrd> there isn't even any default code
<stevend223> @Stogi get Dean Simmons and the Kamen Brothers on it
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<IndySam> learn to learn
<Guest 36> http://therealfirstlife.tumblr.com/post/27227739177/ifi
<Stogi> ^
<stevend223> "But you didn't have to disconnect, now your friends connect a CRIO and they change the system. I thought that I don't need IFI, but now you're just..
<stevend223> a system that I used to know"
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<Stogi> ha
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<apalrd> I'll say that writing autonomous controls is enough of a challange, dealing with inefficiencies of the libraries and base code is a lot to deal with
<Stogi> How many digital sidecars did teams blow this year?
<apalrd> The current processor is 10x faster than the IFI processor, and we're having a very hard time keeping reasonable time and CPU load now
<Stogi> We're probably just derp but our kids blew like 2
<chrisisme> I think we blew two
<Kristian25> We blew one at IRI last year.
<IndySam> none
<Guest 6> camera's go away again if we go back to 900MHz
<apalrd> 900mhz
<Guest 36> There were cameras in 2006, guest 6
<Guest 9> I had 6 rookies last year and would like default code and simpler things for them. But keeping a 17 yr control mentor like Mr. Novak interested
<Guest 9> is also a challenge
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<Stogi> At least Jags dont suck as much
<Guest 36> yup
<apalrd> The Cortex system is fairly bulletproof, I'll say (if you use RobotC, at least)
<Guest 36> here's another good one: http://therealfirstlife.tumblr.com/post/26596354822/when-first-dumped-ifi-for-ni
<GabeSalas> lol Stogi
<Stogi> But really I'd like to have at least stuff not go wrong with the DSC, i'm not even sure what we did
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<IndySam> bingo
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<schreiaj> Discon
<apalrd> I believe they have design documents but they want a new overview document
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<schreiaj> Thank you sprint...the (disconnect) now network
<stevend223> (that was Mt. Olive with the AWESOME last second shot)
<Kristian25> Mount Olive*
<Stogi> Are there any hardware upgrades that FIRST confirmed, based on beta testing from last year? (or was it the year before?)
<Kristian25> MO Finals, for later viewing: http://youtu.be/dwmD6DWu5IQ
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<Kristian25> This one shows the score going back and forth: http://youtu.be/7h2Dm29WPik
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<Kristian25> newton
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<apalrd> it must be 12v
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<schreiaj> http://www3.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2012_Assets/Einstein%20Investigation%20Report.pd
<Kristian25> Alright, I have to go. Thanks for having me on!
<GabeSalas> thanks for joining 
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<Kristian25> Ok, I suppose I'll stay :P
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<schreiaj> that took a lot 
<Kristian25> 
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<Guest 21> Besides the de-auth vulnerability, the investigation identified a number of issues (hardware and software) on many of the robots. Once those issues
<IndySam> I just wish they would fix the hail dents on my car
<Guest 21> were resolved did they run a clean set of matches to prove the fixes?
<schreiaj> 21, unsure
<Guest 41> that sound like hearsay
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<schreiaj> Yeah, a little
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<Kristian25> A lot of matches were played during Einstein weekend once issues were identified.
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<Meredith16> It also cost a LOT of money to do the testing
<schreiaj> Yeah, none of this is cheap
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<Meredith16> The travel was the big expense. I think the professionals were all volunteers
<schreiaj> Either way, that's not cheap
<Guest 41> disregarding the cost, bringing robots to FIRST HQ is also something that had no precedent; i can imagine that causing much hand wringing
<Meredith16> I actually submitted a proposal to Dean that we do it every year for the 12 Einstein teams
<SuperNerd256> Meredith, for what reason should the 12 Einstein teams meet at FIRST HQ each year? Hopefully not future comms problems.
<GabeSalas> @Meredith16 That's a pretty cool idea
<Meredith16> No. to share best practices
<SuperNerd256> Good idea.
<Meredith16> Dean liked it...
<Guest 47> all 12 Einstein teams should qualift (not have champs paid for)
<Guest 47> qualify*
<Guest 47> for future years

  • The Lackey