Exceeding 72 x 72 - Penalty?

If you exceed the 72 x 72 envelope outside your home zone, what is the penalty? DQ? I don’t see it anywhere. Suppose you are deployed > 72 x 72 in your home zone and you get pushed out by the other alliance, same penalty? If it’s DQ, sounds like a possible strategy.

I’m submitting this to Q&A, just thought I’d get CD reaction.

I suspect it is the sort of thing that would be checked out during tech inspection just as all other sizes and weights are. It would be extremely difficult to take a measurement of maximum extension during a match.

Or perhaps it will be a situation where you will only be checked in detail if it appears to the refs that you might be close to exceeding the expanded size limits… in which case, I suspect, you would not be allowed to compete until you had modified the robot in such a way that it could no longer exceed the 72" limit.

But that is probably a good question for the GDC on the FIRST Forums.


The problem with this is that there are some cases (specifically, when you are in the home zone) where you can exceed 72x72. Just because you exceed those dimensions during inspection doesn’t mean that you will do so when it’s illegal. That’s what makes this rule somewhat harder to enforce than, say, the ball speed limit from last year.

That was the point of the question - you can legally exceed 72 x 72 this year, but only in the home zone. But if you deploy before you get there, or you leave the home zone, or you get pushed out of the home zone, what is the penalty? It doesn’t say. If it’s a DQ, that’s pretty major.

I think this rule can only be enforced if it is a gross and obvious violation of the rule. And in that scenario, if intentional (probably not being pushed out of zone, etc), you would probably be forced to modify your robot before being allowed to compete again. Similar to the the ball speed limit last year.

That makes sense, but what about this scenario: You design your robot so that you can push your ramp under your alliance partners if they are stuck. If you cross out of the home zone while doing that, is that gross and obvious? If you do it once? If you do it 3-4 times? With the ball speed, you were never allowed to exceed the speed limit; in this game it’s not that fact that you exceed the envelope, it’s the fact that you left the home zone.

My guess is that crossing the home zone really does not violate the intent of the rule, which is to limit robot size as you’re driving around the field.

if the opposing team pushes you out, the referees will definitely not call a DQ on you. Kind of like if a team intentionally drives up onto your ramp, and tips themselves over. If your team didn’t move, then there would be no way that you could be DQed for being a ramp.

Says who? Common sense says yes, refs may say no (on the last part–teams driving up ramps to tip over). It’s happened before.

Probably depends on timing if you do it within the End Game on the way home they probably won’t penalize you at all but if you unfold at the start and go the whole game then they decide to checkit might be a DQ and possibly force you to modify the robot

I didn’t see the following question posed in the FIRST Q&A:

What is the penalty for unintentionally exceeding the 72"x72" limitation?
(i.e. early deployment of ramps outside of the home zone - either via interaction with other robots or operator error)

If the result is a DQ, then “wide body” robots might want to stay in the home zone for the entire match!

Is this posted there or not? I couldn’t find it… and it’s a question that needs to be asked…

At the same time, a clearer definition of “PLAYING CONFIGURATION” needs to be requested as well. Is it a different playing configuration at every point in the movement of an arm that might exceed the 72" square?

If you’re using a narrow arm that’s centered on your robot and gets penalized, could you argue that by rotating the square 45º, your robot fits within THAT square?:rolleyes:

I asked the question in Q&A; the response has not been posted yet.

The question about fitting diagonally into the 72 x 72 envelope has already been asked and answered in Q&A. Orientation does not matter, so yes a narrow arm plus your robot length can exceed 72 inches. (and I’m using every inch of that diagonal - another benefit of the octagonal frame which allows you to sit farther back in the diagonal).

This is mere speculation, but common sense would dictate that an opposing team trying to drive up your ramp while in your home zone would likely be interpreted as a violation of <G35>:

A ROBOT may not attach to and/or climb onto a ROBOT on an opposing ALLIANCE (doing so will be interpreted as an attempt to damage an opposing robot, and may be penalized as such).

If an opponent deliberately tried to climb you while stationary, I would expect you not to be penalized, and that the opponent might even receive a penalty or DQ. (Eric, I know that this unfortunately was not always the case, particularly for your team in 2005.)

If any part of your robot crosses the home zone line, then you are out of the home zone and must stay within the 72" X 72" restrictions. If you are pushed by an opposing robot, home zone violations are not counted as long as you make a visible attempt to either enter your own home zone or leave the opponent’s home zone.

There are several “What If” scenarios where the robots will pass inspection but may violate one of the size or wedge rules. The inspectors will only look at the starting configuration to verify the dimensions and the robot meets the wedge rules. But when it comes to arms, ramps etc…, the inspectors cannot know when they will be used during the match. If there is a potential for a rules violation, the inspector may notify the teams but the robots will pass inspection.

There is no obvious answer to the original question. I would keep an eye on the Q&A board for updates.

Speaking from an inspection standpoint, inspectors were not required to measure sizes (outside of the box dimensions) or speed last year during inspection. If a team raised the eyebrow of a field inspector, ref, or other person (i.e. opposing coach), then the Lead inspector was alerted and the robot checked for infraction. I was lucky, no team that went through this process in the events I participated in, was found in violation. There were some teams that exceeded the speed limit but only on the first ball. A note to all, the refs and other field people get really good at judging distances, heights, bumper zone, etc. by the afternoon of the practice day. They are generally experts by mid morning on Friday. No fooling that bunch.

Well teams, FIRST has spoken on this subject. Here is their response for the Q&A board:

"Rule <R12> specifies that while outside of the Home Zone, the robot may not exceed 72 inches (width) by 72 inches (length). There is no exception for overturned robots.

In all cases involving a violation of this rule, the ROBOT may be disabled and/or disqualified."

Unfortunately, they put the word “may” in there which means it’s all still open for speculation and discussion… I hate lawyering the rules, but the way they write things makes us do it…

So, if you are in the finals and you tip over a robot that is reaching for the top spider leg, you get to start over? A DQ for them and a DQ for you… sounds like we’ll be having quite a few rematches this year.

Go ahead and try that and see what happens. :slight_smile:

Think it through. The use of the “the ROBOT may be disabled and/or disqualified” phrase makes a lot of sense, and seems like a good call by FIRST. Not every violation of <R12> is the same. Some are massive and deserving of a DQ (e.g. a robot that can reach 12 feet horizontally and was designed from the start as a rule-violator), some are minor and transient and appropriate of a lesser penalty (e.g. a six-foot-tall robot that is pushed over by an opponent - during the course of falling over, it temporarily has a horizontal dimension greater than 72 inches and therefore violates the rule). This wording makes it clear that you are not supposed to violate the rule, but gives the referees some discretion on how it is penalized, based on the context of the infraction.