Festival of Champions: Right and Wrong

FIRST General Forum
#39

Other sports (mostly outside of the U.S.) feature competitions that are fairly equivalent to Festival of Champions.

In much of Latin America, soccer seasons are divided on the calendar into two separate halves, each with their own champion. In a few of these countries, the two half-season champions play each other to decide the overall champion that year. In other countries (like Mexico), the two half-season champions play each other in a standalone tournament, but both participants are still champions of their respective season.

Likewise, in European soccer there are several simultaneous orthogonal competitions in each country that each crown their respective champions and then begin the next year with a Super Cup. In general, winning a Super Cup means you get an official trophy and some bragging rights, but it generally carries less prestige than winning the competition that got you there. I think this is the right framework for thinking about Festival of Champions.

Lastly, even as an outspoken critic of Two Champs, I don’t have any difficulty recognizing all 8 STL/Houston teams as World Champions. There are ~3350 teams in FRC now and we crown 8 champions. That’s about the same rate of champions per registered team as in 2007 (3 champs for 1305 teams). Are we going to start saying that Championships in the alliance era before 2007 don’t count? :slight_smile:

#40

What if you invited all of the district champions to compete? That way you ensure that there is some international representation and diverse geographic representation. Last season there were ten regions we are probably moving to 12ish next season. You have a good group to run some fun and engaging matches that have built in rooting interests for fans.

Every idea that has been thrown out is very FRC-centric though. I wish they could incorporate something like FIRST Global into the event.

It was pretty enjoyable on the whole though audio issues really bugged me and lead to me muting it while it was happening. Maybe a little bit more breakdown in between matches on decisions and turning points in the match could have been fun (similar to the VEX Worlds broadcast) but I thought it worked pretty well for the first year.

#41

If FIRST decides to have an event broadcasted then this would definitely be a great way to expose the world to FRC. And having the teams decided by Einstein where you are on an Einstein team ensures you get some really good teams and would also get rid of that whole conversation as to wether the FOC winner is the real FRC winner or if both alliances are.

If you invite the top 24 teams then wouldn’t it be better if in the morning you held some qual matches then had an alliance selection with then have possibly the most competitive elims in FIRST history.

#42

Now that the thread has been going on for a while, and we have some significant discourse I’d like to comment on a few things myself.

The potential to expand the event, in my mind, would be a very interesting thing. Some people here proposed going based on “district points” earned in championship divisions, which is a very interesting way to run things, but it depends on what the event is supposed to be. If a way to show off FRC and FTC at the highest level of play, where the winner isn’t a “world champion,” then a “invite the good teams who did well in their division” style works amazingly. It almost feels wrong to say, but the IRI tagline might have to be shared unofficially :stuck_out_tongue:

The FOC was described to a few spectators who just showed up (I promise you, they actually exist) as Grand Finals, which I feel is the closest analogy for now.

Otherwise though, I’m still recovering from five of the most intense matches of my life.

#43

I certainly enjoyed watching, other than the audio issues that have been brought up already.

In terms of “What I might hope for, given the reality of there being two championship-winning alliances”:
When Festival of Champions was first announced, there was a bit of discussion here that all that was said was that the teams “would meet in competition”, and some wild speculation that this might mean a competition other than that year’s regular FRC game. While I think playing Steamworks matches was awesome (though really so much is going on at that level I could barely keep track of what was happening), having some other technical “competitions” for the teams could be fun too.

Imagine some sort of new challenge, where teams have a day to build something (on FTC-scale, likely) to play some new game. It could even tie into that year’s theme (maybe actually running the airship race that they’ve been “preparing for” in all the matches throughout the season?) Maybe something Junkyard Wars style, with “here’s a bunch of parts, accomplish X objective”? Or one of those classic engineering games like building a board out of aluminum foil or building a bridge from toothpicks? Maybe other fun mini-games of various sorts, testing human player skills or trivia or spoofing “classic” game shows like Battlecry’s festivities include? Maybe have some sort of total points over all the events to determine who wins the “Festival”? Or maybe something American Gladiators style, where the initial games (perhaps including the main FRC matches) provide some sort of point or time advantage for the “final challenge”?

I guess I’m saying, that if the point is to celebrate the winners, having them hang out at Dean’s house is pretty neat, but hard to involve the rest of the community in. If the point is “an exhibition of great teams”, there’s a lot that could be done that’d both be fun for them to do and fun for others to watch beyond “just” playing more “regular” matches. It could be easier to include Chairman’s winners too, as well as the “4th teams” that might not get a “play with a robot” otherwise.

#44

Well, I can say from first-hand experience that the issue in match two for 1676 was definitely not a comm issue, but a wiring issue.

Having gone through it all, I think the experience was awesome. The tour of DEKA was a little underwhelming, but in retrospect I don’t think seeing a cube farm would have made it much better. However the guy who spoke to us was very interesting.

The party at Dean’s house was really cool, not so much for seeing his house (which is really neat) but for seeing friends from around the country. But I never did get to see “the door” at FIRST.

As for the tournament itself: wow. What a high-level of matchplay. The production values were adequate. I only wish seating was slightly more plentiful on the lower level. Worth both my time and my money.

#45

I was in attendance as a Dean’s List parent/mentor.

Aside from the stuff that’s been mentioned before (specifically sound, need for it to exist in the first place, FTC live scoring), I thought it went off really well.

FTC had an exciting game this year, and I was happy to see it getting some recognition.

Minor nitpicks:

For the pre-show, some of us had been standing around for a couple of hours through the rehearsals and it was difficult to tell if the pre-show (with the police chief, Air Force award to Dean, etc.) was a pre-show or still a rehearsal.

Nobody else probably even noticed this, but I was disappointed that only 14 of the 20 Dean’s list winners were recognized in the broadcast (they left out the 6 FRC winners from Houston).

I was surprised they didn’t show the game explanation videos. If someone randomly tuned in on twitch they would’ve been totally lost. (That being said, they may have been totally lost even if they saw the scoring rules.)

FTC live scoring is a mess. I was able to ask an FTC GDC member about it and they are working on some ideas. Without the efforts of one of the FTC teams we wouldn’t have even had the modest live scoring (or shot-counting – not really scoring) that was seen at Supers and Worlds this year. It would make it much more spectator-friendly.

But, overall, it was a great experience. I wouldn’t travel a long distance to attend again (unless we were magically one of those teams that qualified), but I would watch online.

#46

This sentence makes me sad.

#47

Obviously this would need to happen pretty far down the road, but in my mind as we have more teams, especially at the highest levels #2champs will become #3champs, and then #4champs, and on and on. As these levels of competition grow, each of the championships will become more like super regionals (for example, West Coast Super regional), at which point all of the winners will come to play at an event in between the 10 team FOC and 600 team Champs where they will play some kind of event (either mix it up or a crazy hype elimination tournament with same alliances) to decide the true winner. By doing so there won’t be confusion about who is the true world champ or what that even means, but teams can still take pride on championing the West Coast, running with the same example. This will also enable FIRST to raise the hype level of the event by a ton, give teams more reason to watch (cheer on the winners of their super regional who they more directly interacted/competed with), and get the level of excitement to the level of a potentially televised event.

Essentially, turn every champs division into its own super regional and have all of the winners come to play in a final showdown like FOC on a larger scale.

#48

I don’t think the students were terribly upset about it, at least the ones I know about. They had a great time and this was just a minor issue in an otherwise fantastic weekend. They were recognized before at St. Louis/Houston in front of a much larger audience, anyway.

(Probably their parents and grandparents were more annoyed about it than the students).

#49

I loved that this was a big step in promoting FTC more heavily. Obviously, we need better live scoring… Also, I wish they’d just show the FTC game video to the spectators… I think that could solve a lot of the confusion about the game. (That being said, I think the FTC game was easier to jump into than Steamworks. I had a hard time explaining Steamworks to my FTC kiddos at IRI. I also think it’s sad that these kids work so hard in FTC and don’t get representation like FRC does. My kids work just as hard as FRC kids, so I’m glad to see FIRST stepping it up.)

I also agree with the comments about it taking away the marathon aspect. There’s nothing like going into the finals after a brutal day of qualifiers and then elims.

FIRST HQ, FTC livescoring is a must. You have the capability to do it, so… Do it.

#50

Oh, I noticed it. When that happened, I thought that something had just skipped over in the broadcast or that I’d just gone crazy. That was definitely a mistake on FIRST’s part, but I imagine that the Houston Dean’s List winners aren’t extraordinarily affected by this.

#51

This. 1000x this.

#52

I do feel like they missed a big opportunity to expand this event out to the non-FRC community, either by putting it on TV or something else. Its such a small event, with such big implications, that I feel like it was a bit wasted only seeing the ~700 or so people on the twitch live stream (It fluctuated at times, but I remember seeing about 700 viewers.)

I liked how they combined the FRC and FTC matches into one live stream. Until that stream, I have never even seen a full FTC match, so it was interesting to see the other sides of FIRST.

I have high hopes for the future of the FoC. Seems like a necessity, especially since the number of world championships will only continue to increase further into the future.

#53

Yes, please make that the norm. If they are ready, start the match.

#54

In this format I agree, you have the same alliances in consecutive matches. At a regional or district event, however, I would still want the MC to introduce each team. First, we have guests that attend for only part of the event, and the introduction may be “new” to them. Second, it’s not the same teams as last match.

For elims, until the finals, I believe one “large” introduction for each team, at each level, is appropriate, and a “short” introduction of the alliance (if a backup hasn’t swapped in) in subsequent matches would be fine. In finals, I do like the one and done introductions, again, unless a backup is subbed in, then perhaps reintroduce all the teams in short form (to keep it even).

#55

I don’t mind full intro in the finals. We aren’t going to be there much longer and it gives the final a more epic feel.
Kathik’s lengthy history lesson introductions are worth attending the event alone.

#56

I think the best way to lay this out is a standard introduction of each team in their first match of quarters, and then have a big introduction with sponsors and how many times 254 has won SVR. I seem to recall this was really well done when 1678, 148, 364, and 2990 (sorry if I messed any of that up) played together in the 2016 Hopper Finals. Watching the matches really gave the whole audience a peek into each individual team as well as the history between 1678/148 and their opponents 1323 and 971. If we had seen that before every match, I would be asleep. But in the finals, that story had me on the edge of my seat. Obviously not everyone has crazy connections or a story like that, but with good announcing I think it can be done well just in finals after brief intros in quarters.

Mad props to whoever that announcer was!!

#57

I think we should keep the introductions before each match, but it should be tweaked. As it has been mentioned many times, the field is often ready to start the match, but we are waiting to introduce the teams. What if right after the final scores are announced, with everyone’s attention on the big screen, we begin the introductions for the next match. The MC could announce the teams and the screen could show information about each team such as team number, name, sponsors, current rank, current record, and even a picture of robot. This would reduce cycle times and, I think, would be more interesting than watching the MC point to each drive team on the other side of the glass.

I also think the FoC should be best out of 7 matches.

#58

That’s really on the MC though - a good MC monitors the FMS status screen at the score desk and should have a feel for when to introduce teams. Often times you can’t wait for all of those to hit green before introducing teams and I’ve had many times they still aren’t green by the time I’ve finished introducing them. New / inexperienced MC’s should be mentored on the FMS screen and use it to get a feel for when it’s time to go introduce teams.