FiM is NOT FIRST

Competition District Events
1

It has been about 2 months now since FIRST was bombarded by this new FiM which until that time, had been a well-kept secret. When I first read the thread and through the documentation, I chose to defer my thoughts until I was able to think with my head instead of my heart. It has taken 2 months, but I finally feel that I have been able to look at this based on the facts that FiM has given. What follows are the thoughts that I’ve composed.

This year, there was a new program created called FIRST in Michigan (FiM).  All Michigan FRC teams were required to participate in it if they wanted to participate in FIRST.  FiM, however, is not the same thing as FIRST.  It is truly a separate organization with a fully different set of values.  FiM is seen by anyone outside of the committee which formed it, as an attempt to turn FIRST into OCCRA.  (For those unfamiliar with OCCRA, please see the OCCRA section of the CD forums; in short it is a purely robot organization encompassing SE Michigan)  FiM does not have respect, nor care, about any awards outside of robot/technical.

While some may say the above statement is biased, FiM has said it in its actions.  Technical awards are worth more than twice of non-“culture changing” non-technical awards.  FiM has set up this system to evaluate based on points.  As such, their point allocation dictates their values.

Awards
All Technical Awards * 5 points
Other Judged Awards* 2 points
FIRST Culture Transforming Awards*** 0 points

  • Industrial Design, Quality, Driving Tomorrow’s Technology, Innovation in Control, Creativity
    ** Chrysler Team Spirit, Highest Rookie Seed, Imagery, Johnson & Johnson Gracious Professionalism, Judges Award, Underwriters Laboratories Industrial Safety, Website
    *** Chairman’s Award, Engineering Inspiration, Rookie All-Star, Woodie Flowers, Entrepreneurship, Autodesk Visualization
    Unspecified which category: Autodesk Inventor*

    The data above comes from FiM’s .pdf file which it sent out to Michigan teams, the first time any of us found out that we would not be allowed to participate in FIRST Robotics this year. As you can see above, “Other Judged Awards” are worth less than half of what “Technical Awards” are. That means, that in the mind of FiM, being the most Graciously Professional team in the entire competition is worth less than half of having the best designed electronics board. What absolutely terrifies me, is that I have it on fairly good authority that the FIRST Board of Directors has approved this system. Apparently the FIRST Board of Directors no longer values gracious professionalism either, at least not even half as much as an Industrially Designed robot.

    What really upsets me, is that this new program which teams who want to be a part of FIRST are required to participate in, thinks that “Culture Transforming Awards” are the least valuable in the entire competition. The Chairman’s Award, which FIRST has preached for years to be the most important, and the most coveted, is worth absolutely nothing. 0 points go toward the team effort, and all that these all important “Culture Transforming Awards” do is qualify only the team for states for 1 award. A “Technical Award” gives a team effort 5 points toward the States, and qualifies a team for that award at states.

    FIRST in Michigan is an entirely different program than FIRST. Perhaps the people who have started this organization can create their own organization, which, similar to OCCRA, may operate separately of FIRST. I want to participate in FIRST, where the hours upon hours I spend teaching my students about gracious professionalism, and helping them perfect their Chairman’s submission and presentation, are actually worth something. The detrimental effects of this program will linger. I have been told these point allocations are written in stone for this year, that they will not be changed. The FIRST Board of Directors needs to take a face full of cold water and reconsider their approval of this program. The damaging long term effects of this “experimental pilot” could take years to reverse. If those who are in charge of the FiM organization are to be the ones who evaluate the program, this catastrophe could continue on for years to come. What FiM is doing will ruin the FIRST program in Michigan, I do not doubt this for a second. If FiM wants a purely robot program, by all means, create one. If FiM wants a lower cost program, by all means create one. But if FiM wants to get their way but knows well that no one will buy their line so they’re going to force their way onto teams who want to participate in the real FIRST, well, I’m officially going on the record that I’m not ok with that.

2

How much are you paraphrasing, and how much is the actual verbage released by FiM?

3

Awards
All Technical Awards * 5 points
Other Judged Awards* 2 points
FIRST Culture Transforming Awards*** 0 points

  • Industrial Design, Quality, Driving Tomorrow’s Technology, Innovation in Control, Creativity
    ** Chrysler Team Spirit, Highest Rookie Seed, Imagery, Johnson & Johnson Gracious Professionalism, Judges Award, Underwriters Laboratories Industrial Safety, Website
    *** Chairman’s Award, Engineering Inspiration, Rookie All-Star, Woodie Flowers, Entrepreneurship, Autodesk Visualization
    Unspecified which category: Autodesk Inventor*

From the above, the number of points was not included on the list for FIRST Culture Transforming Awards, however in words, it is later told to not be worth points, as such, I put that in. For the Award lists, the Technical Awards were listed as were the Culture Transforming. Other was listed as all awards except Technical and Culture, so I went through last year’s award list and included those not listed in either category. Those items italicized above and in my original post are pulled from the .pdf document. The non-italicized portion is taken from my conversations with FiM members (Board and otherwise) and implications of the .pdf file.

4

I am going to have to agree. I think that FiM from what I can read, and no one from FiM is coming forward to refute this, is that FiM basically wants a robotics program that is more robot based then the CULTURE CHANGING (How can you call it that, and then award it zero points. I guess they feel changing culture is bad?) aspect of FIRST but FiM dosen’t have the teams, sponsors and high schools that don’t already have FRC teams, in order to have a big enough program. So the solution they came up with was to come up with this pilot program essentially forcing teams into their program. I’ll also officially go on the record that I’m not ok with most of what’s being done in this “Pilot”

I can live with the change in format. I’m not really happy about it because I love the regionals, I love having the option of going anywhere in the country(world?) to compete. I do like the increased number of matches played. I think that’s one of the things that FiM is right about.

I know that generally people are resistant to change. And most of the people that I have talked to about this program have a very negative reaction to it. I think FIRST needs to really think long and hard about continuing this program in other states.

If it works in Michigan, then keep it there. Let them have their competition’s and the rest of the FIRST community will be happy to recognize the best teams by allowing them to compete at Championships. I don’t think this “pilot” should be use anywhere else until a group of teams feels it’s necessary for their state.

5

what do you mean “not allowed to participate in FIRST”? i’m confuzzled, though i understand the rest of your argument.

6

Although I do agree with some of yor points, it is still FIRST if the students are still being Inspired to partake in Science and Technology. When you say that FiM is not FIRSt, it sounds like you are implying that the true goals of FIRST are not being realized, which I do not think holds true in the case of FiM being compared to the rest of the FIRST world.

Even still, I sincerely wish all Michigan teams the best of luck this season and hope that they find the good in this transition, and “experiment” as I’ve heard it called before, along with the bad.*

*I don’t want the concept of FiM either, btw. Just want you to clarify what you are implying in terms of FiM not being FIRST.

7

i agree FiM is in my opinion will change the whole first experience and not for the better.

why i disagree
-like it or not the the chairman’s award is the core of first and by down playing it you will see First start to change in to a scary mix of battle bots and science Olympiad i mean the fact that they want chairman’s award to come and just present is really weird it feels like they are almost being punished the chairman’s award is about your whole team about your robot about you team about your actions in the heat of a match about your design they say it about you presentation but we all know it about your team as a package
-cross-state relations a great part of First, meeting people from other teams in other state is one of my favorite things(like getting to hang out with teams like moe and hot) and by make it so different state teams could only meet at nationals would it would greatly hinder these relationship
-regional quality if you have ever been to FLR you will know what i mean i don’t want to compete in a high school gym i like that fact the thing are like that theres enuf room, that it feels safe and theres tons of seats ( i don’t mean to brag but they do i really nice job)

i like more matches but not at the cost of the whole feel of first

i like what 340x4xLife said "
If it works in Michigan, then keep it there. Let them have their competition’s and the rest of the FIRST community will be happy to recognize the best teams by allowing them to compete at Championships. I don’t think this “pilot” should be use anywhere else until a group of teams feels it’s necessary for their state."

Folks please don’t follow first blindly THINK about it and speak your mind this is going to be the first time the team will have to stand up for there Ideas in order to keep First-First

think-Dean would want you to

8

To put it simply: FIRST has sold out.

They’ve exchanged their values and ideas for more money and exposure.

9

If you don’t agree with FiM, but want to see FIRST grow to include most if not all of the schools in the nation, and expand worldwide, how would you manage the growth? If FIRST (FRC that is) expands to 10,000 teams (versus the current 1300-1500), do you think that the current model would still be workable?

How many regionals would you need to handle this number? Even assuming that each team can go to only one regional, with 80 teams at each regional, you would need 125 regionals. How many matches would you get? So how many teams would qualify for Championships? And how would you judge Chairman’s Award from 125 entries? How about the other awards? How often would you even get to see certain teams, let alone compete against or with them.

It’s easy to say “this is changing everything and I don’t like it”, but unless you want to freeze the number of teams, something will change. So, instead of griping, I challenge you to suggest better, workable solutions.

P.S. I picked 10,000 teams because FLL is projecting over 13,000 teams this year. And they are facing a lot of the challenges listed above.

10

FiM’s methods, but WIDE OPEN and with the Culture Changing awards rated much higher than zero.

The main thing that annoyed me initially was that this was sprung suddenly on the teams and required–you had to be in it to compete at all. After seeing this thread, add that they’re not counting the culture change awards as they should. And, after the early manual release, the confusion created by the Awards section (there is a thread on this elsewhere).

If they’d been more open, and had said, “Hey, we want to do this, what do you think?” it would be another story. Everyone could have put input in and (hopefully) had it used to make this better.

With 10,000 teams, the current model isn’t workable. But the FiM model seems to be already in place in a number of other events (BB, BEST, etc.). What sets FIRST apart is mentor involvement and Gracious Professionalism. If you’re not going to include those, or you’re only going to pay them lip service, you may as well go to the other events. They’re cheaper, and you do the same basic thing, build a robot.

11

first of all, it’s great to see that many people willing to disagree with FIRST is also great to see no one flipping out and claiming that were being un-GP

Carol-you bring up a great point here, but I have to disagree I feel that rather than producing thousands more teams in these economic times will be nearly impossible. In that rather than starting tons more teams. We need to work to elevate more teams to be more MOE we need to work to advance rookie teams of 10 kids two veteran teams of 50 or 60 kids, teens need to work to consolidate, I feel, we all need to work to make sure that the kids, who want to be on a first-team can join the team that is not necessarily based in their own school. right now . I personally don’t see first getting anywhere close to a team in every school but rather a large team in every city/town

I know that transportation in some areas could be an issue, but what is more expensive. A 2-month bus pass or a small team?

FIRST-stop trying to cut costs and quality and encourage teams to recruit more members from a larger area and and build a stronger more competitive team. and work harder to go international!!!

12

Joe well, you may believe this to be true, but extreme statements like that are the sort of things that will turn people away from graciously disagreeing with FiM

13

That’s a hard question.

But if FIRST has to sacrifice their ideals and values* just to grow the program, that’s not healthy growth. That’s cancer.

  • FiM is a robot competition. It’s not a culture-changing competition that happens to use robots as a vehicle for inspiration.
14

FiM originally set up 16 districts, envisioning an eventual 16 district tournaments. If every tournament were allowed to send Chairman’s, IE and Rookie All-Star winners to the State Championship, there wouldn’t be enough room to send the winning alliance from each district. Thus the culture changing awards category was created. This year there are 7 district tournaments, so the capacity could have been there, but it would mean changing the structure as more and more districts are added.

I think they went overboard in how they decided to resolve that, though. There’s no reason a culture-changing award couldn’t be given high points in the overall scheme. Winning Chairman’s at the district should get you at least as many points as winning the robot competition. Winning a robot quality award should be equal to winning a team organization quality award (ie. entrepreneurship). In most cases, there won’t be teams that are “robot teams” vs those that are “culture teams”. Most teams that are good at one will be reasonably good at the other.

A better structure of points could be set up to better reflect the values of FIRST. When I heard of the concept, my thought was, “You mean points like in a FF league?” “Yes,” was the answer, “But better.” In my opinion, the point structure they came up with was not better. Hopefully after they see how the thing runs this year, they will tweak the point structure.

I can see the special category of you-can-come-without-your-robot for some teams who win one of the culture awards but don’t do much on the field. They should be recognized just as much as the ones who build great robots. The recognition will be done in a different manner. The plan I heard was to have them put up displays in the entrance area at Ypsi. But it would be better still if they were allowed to compete because the culture-changing award they won generated enough points to get them entrance to the whole tournament. I’m afraid there might still be a team or two that wins some award(s) but wouldn’t get enough points - in which case, they would truly be very lonely out there in that lobby with their display. I’m not sure how that can be resolved.

One downfall I immediately saw to this plan was the elimination of teams from outside the state, and the potential for very few teams to travel outside Michigan. We will certainly miss the teams that used to come to our events from ON, IN, IL, OH and other locales. If the district structure were to expand to other areas, perhaps the impact of this could be lessened. For example, there might be a structure in the Upper Midwest with a championship in Minneapolis, fed by several districts in WI, IA, MN, etc. Each championship would have an allotment of spots for the World Championship based on the teams entered. Teams would be assigned - or perhaps could declare - which championship event they were working towards. But they would be allowed to sign up for districts outside their championship on a space-available basis, earning points toward their own championship. I’d be a little worried about teams shopping for an easy district, but teams can do that now by selecting their regional event(s). So for instance, a UP team could decide to attend districts in Traverse City and another in Milwaukee, earning qualification points to either the Michigan or Minneapolis championship, but not both.

15

Many people have touched on my point. I understand that FIRST is expanding, and perhaps the districts are a good way to cope. For that, only time will tell. I await this season.

What many of you have also picked up on is that my problem is the implication of the point values creating a program which has a completely different set of values than FIRST, the program in which I have proudly participated for years. Thank you all for voicing your thoughts, whether you agree with me or not, having a dialogue is productive.

16

The really stupid part about FiM to me, is that the model is clearly centered around the competition. It’s focusing more on the robots, and the competitive experience by rewarding robot performance more than other aspects of FIRST.

Now I don’t necessarily have an issue with this, because I like competing as much as anyone else, but I see where people have complaints.

The reason I think that it’s stupid is because in most states besides MI, what is going to happen is the district system will actually make the competitions far worse. Teams from outside the area will not be able to travel to an event, and you’ll see the same old group of teams. In areas without many strong teams, this will mean events that are super boring, or consistently dominated by one good team.

As to the point of “what do we do when we have 10,000 teams and can’t use the current model?” well…let’s just say I don’t see that happening anytime soon. It’s taken the better part of two decades to get to around 2,000 teams. FIRST management is completely delusional if they think there’s a snowball’s chance in hell of EVER having a FRC team in every school in the country, or even 50% of them.

What FIRST ought to be doing is figuring out how to prevent 15-20% of their teams from dropping out of the competition every year, instead of worrying about their growth rate. What good will it do to have 10,000 teams who barely have a clue and are just scraping by versus 2,000 teams that are actually sustainable?

17

I have run some of the numbers and posted it in another thread (started by Dave) what I would do. http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68653&page=18
Check those out. I really think something great could come from FiM.

I would argue some of the key objectives of a “Pilot” is to have a large enough sample for it to be meaningful. Also to not destroy the integrity of the whole by just making Universal changes to everyone. That is why you do a “Pilot”.

The State boarder was chosen as a way to Geographically limit the damage if things go bad. Take it as it is.

I think it is very selfish to make statements like: “FIRST should not care about those that don’t have programs, and instead help me and my friends”. This is what “I” hear when senior teams tell me that they don’t want things to change. I know that is not what you are intending, but again that is what I hear.

Back to the Quality vs. Quantity vs. Funding. Currently most of the regionals are subsidized heavily by corporations. Guess what, when discressionary money runs out, so does the large sum of cash to put on a regional. You already have Automakers like Nissan and many others pulling out of Auto-Shows that help sell their products. Do you think they will continue to earmark $250K so a “certain” group of kids can be inspired? A big part of FiM is trying to find a sustainable model for FRC. Right now their are 6 district events that teams automatically get to participate in 2 for $5k. Then 50% of teams get to qualify for the State Championship, which should be at least as good as GLR. What is not GP about that? Finding a way to remove one of the “off work” days so more mentors can participate, what is not GP about that? Having events close enough so that parents can come and watch. Letting Rookies get 2 events under their belts their first year. And there are many more positive elements. Talk to Rookies that didn’t come back, and the number one thing they will tell you is too limit return on investment. It takes a couple of years for the “values” to sink in.

As far as the Culture Transforming awards, some might say that any points you put towards a culture transforming award cheapens the meaning of the Award. Just a thought. I too was shocked that there were not points for those awards, but I think there is more to it.

Disagreeing with some of the points system is great. Adding input on what you value about FIRST is great (thank you Beth). Being passionate about your program is great. Please be realistic. Most teams are building with donated money, and traveling with donated money, and playing on fields with donated money. FiM may not be the exact right answer, but I applaud them for trying. I look forward to looking back on 2009 to see if FiM is a success.

18

I totally agree with Cory and Colin touched on this point as well. We should be striving towards sustainable teams. Not more teams just for the sake of having them.

If the goal of FIRST in this endeavor is to get more students involved, the experience they get on a so-so team that is struggling, is not as good as the experience they would get if they perhaps traveled down the road a bit to a school that already has a successful team. Our team currently has a few students from a neighboring district without a team and I know they are having a great experience.

As far as FiM is concerned, I guess I’m not totally clear about what their goal is. The Q&A says that this competition structure was determined to be the best way to bring a quality experience to as many students as possible. Yet they have also said that there are “so many teams” in Michigan that the three regional’s they host is not enough to support all the teams. Yet for some reason the answer is not another regional. Because they say, they don’t have the money in sponsorship to start another regional. I find it interesting that all these new teams in Michigan seem to find money to start and be competitive yet the money is lacking for a regional.

I think if there true goal is a quality experience then robbing teams of an FRC Regional experience is not the answer. I love the Finger Lakes Regional. To me, that’s what FIRST is. The build season is fun and everything don’t get me wrong, but going to FLR is what it’s all about. Over the years 340 has been lucky to meet teams like 365, 67, 65, 68, 217, 354, among others. That’s the FIRST experience. Under the FiM model we wouldn’t have a 365 shirt in our shop, or a 217 and 237 shirt.

Simply, if your state can’t support another regional, then stop pushing for new teams. Look at the MOE Robotics group. How many high schools is that? And you can’t tell me those kids haven’t gotten an amazing experience. Between a great robot every year and a national Chairman’s award, they are a team that should be emulated. Ask a kid on a struggling team in Michigan if he doesn’t wish his team could be like that.

Quality. Not Quantity.

19

There are now 127 teams registered in Michigan, including 13 rookies and 13 second-year teams. Not “all those new” teams, but a steady growth. With the 3 regionals we had about 140-150 slots - the Detroit Regional at Wayne State was limited to only about 35 teams because of the size of the facility. The people who created what eventually became FiM were looking toward the time there wouldn’t be enough regional slots in the state for all the teams from the state, let alone those who wanted to go to a second regional in the state. They could have looked for sponsorship to hold a 4th regional, which would have cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $200,000. Instead, they chose to eliminate two of the regionals, create 7 new district tournaments at a total cost of less than one regional, and change GLR into the Michigan Championship.

I think if there true goal is a quality experience then robbing teams of an FRC Regional experience is not the answer. I love the Finger Lakes Regional. To me, that’s what FIRST is. The build season is fun and everything don’t get me wrong, but going to FLR is what it’s all about. Over the years 340 has been lucky to meet teams like 365, 67, 65, 68, 217, 354, among others. That’s the FIRST experience. Under the FiM model we wouldn’t have a 365 shirt in our shop, or a 217 and 237 shirt.
I’ve already addressed the concerns about not seeing teams from other states. But the reality of the situation is that very soon, Michigan would have to close registration to other states anyway, as Washington did for a time. That or say, “No more new teams.”

Simply, if your state can’t support another regional, then stop pushing for new teams. Look at the MOE Robotics group. How many high schools is that? And you can’t tell me those kids haven’t gotten an amazing experience. Between a great robot every year and a national Chairman’s award, they are a team that should be emulated. Ask a kid on a struggling team in Michigan if he doesn’t wish his team could be like that.

Quality. Not Quantity.
Except MOE is in a tiny little state - even considering they get some students from nearby states. Oakland County alone is 40% the size of Delaware - and has 28 teams, including 5 rookies. Some of the rookie teams in Michigan this year are from communities 50 or more miles from any existing team. Some are from the Detroit schools, with no transportation available to the suburbs. Are you really in favor of saying “No room” to inner city and small-town/rural school districts? And most of the legacy teams are in southeast Michigan, historically largely supported by the auto industry. There are many medium-size cities and scores of small town school systems still without teams. FiM was created to give access to those areas.

Is it an ideal solution? No. We’ve argued the point structure here in this thread. But something had to be done, or the existing teams would have been in the position of crossing the moat, pulling up the drawbridge behind them, and keeping the castle to themselves.

20

For those of you not in favor of FiM, I just ask that you be careful with what you say. Unknowingly, some of you have called me, and many like me, not GP. I ask that you take a moment and think before you write.

Maybe FiM won’t work. Maybe it will. I can guarantee you that the numbers for point values probably should be tweaked. There is nothing stopping that.

I can tell you this: my team has saved money due to this model. Many others are competing in two events for the first time in their history. To say the FiM competition structure doesn’t teach GP, I just don’t get it.

Cory brought up an interesting point about one team dominating a weak district. How many Silicon Valley Regionals has 254 won in the last 11 years? Seems to me that the possibility of weak regionals already exists. Sorry, but I am calling it like I see it.

It is funny to me that many of you complaining are not even from Michigan. Why can’t you let it play out and we can debate then. While there may be many that will force the issue after the season, there are many more of us that will take a factual look at how it actually worked. Believe it or not, the evil FiM folks do care about GP (there are over 5 WFFA winners that are part of FiM) and about teams. Retention is at the top of the priority list.

Beth,

When you see Jim Zondag at the Novi Kickoff (if you are going there), please tell him to his face that he is not promoting Gracious Professionalism and make sure I am there to see it.

Paul