**FIRST EMAIL**/Invitation to Beta test the New Control System

FIRST General Forum
1

Greetings Teams:

With the launch of our new FRC Control System just around the corner, we are seeking a limited number of teams interested in beta testing the new control system.

FIRST BETA TEST PROGRAM GOALS

  •   Give as many teams as possible early hands-on exposure to the 2009 control system;

  •   Use beta team feedback to refine/develop supporting documentation and training materials;

  •   Test the features and functions of the new control system to uncover problems and provide solution suggestions;

  •   Develop a supporting network/knowledge database to ease the transition to the new system;

  •   Allow teams to become “Control System Experts” and serve as area leaders to mentor other teams;

  •   Share information to minimize strategic advantages; and

  •   Understand the difficulties and issues that teams may encounter with the new control system.

In order to be eligible for the FIRST beta testing program, FRC teams must exhibit attributes consistent with a Chairman’s Award winning team and have participated in FIRST programs for at least three recent years. Teams will be selected based on their location and their FIRST experiences. The specific beta testing criteria for the FRC teams is outlined below:

TEAM SELECTION CRITERIA

  •   COMMUNITY

  o  Teams who have consistently demonstrated involvement within their FIRST community will best fit this beta program.  A team’s communication network should be in place and will be utilized in this project.

  •   VISION

  o  Teams who have proven they ‘get’ the bigger picture and vision of FIRST and who want to work together for the betterment of the FRC program are preferred.

  •   GEOGRAPHICAL AREAS

  o  Team location is key to the beta test.  FIRST will distribute the control systems geographically in an effort to gather more diverse feedback and also to create “Control System Experts” in as many locations as possible for future mentoring.

REQUIRED BETA TEST TASKS
Beta test teams must perform the following tasks:

  •   Submit and execute a test schedule and plan;

  •   Transplant the new control system into an existing FRC competition robot with the understanding that they will not take this opportunity to test new mechanisms;

  •   Designate one lead student and one technical mentor to serve as the communicators of test results;

  •   Post their findings on the FIRST Forums on a bi-weekly basis;

  •   Be available to answer questions from teams in their region, and from the broader FRC community;

  •   Release every piece of code developed;

  •   Open their facility to regional teams to observe or assist in the test program;

  •   Agree to serve as “Control Systems Experts” and provide support to teams in their surrounding areas for the 2009 season;

  •   Hold at least one Saturday controls training seminar open to all neighboring teams prior to the 2009 kickoff.  This schedule is to be posted on the FIRST Forums; and

  •   Agree to return this 2009 Control System to FIRST upon request.

FIRST is asking interested, eligible FRC teams to submit a written proposal via this application form <http://www.usfirst.org/forms.aspx?ekfrm=9446> by August 15th, 2008 on why they would be a good candidate, how they intend to collaborate and work with their neighboring teams, and what they intend to do if they receive the new control system.

Teams are asked to identify the specific robotic features that will be integrated as part of the team’s beta testing efforts. By being specific, teams will increase their chances for being selected. For example, teams might consider including one or more of the following robotic features in their proposed development plan:

  •   Image-based control to track the position of a target such as the 2006 Aim High cold cathode light;

  •   Closed loop PI control of a rotating robotic arm using a potentiometer;

  •   Control of the end of travel of a mechanical component through the use of limit switches, light sensors, and/or potentiometers;

  •   Navigation using wheel encoders and a gyro;

  •   Implementation of a blown circuit breaker detection algorithm;

  •   Implementation of a transmission shifting algorithm; and/or

  •   Implementation of an autonomous routine.

Applications for beta test teams will be reviewed by a panel of Championship Woodie Flowers Award Winners.

Selected teams will be notified by September 1st, 2008 and control systems will be shipped starting September 15th, 2008 after FIRST receives the test schedule and plan from the beta tester. Please direct questions regarding submissions to [email protected].

While FIRST would like to provide every team with a control system for evaluation in the beta test, FIRST must limit the scope of this test program due to the number of control systems available at this early date.

Our beta test team selection criteria, out of necessity, narrows the list of potential participants but is not intended to favor or disfavor any specific teams. One goal of the beta test program is to strengthen local communication and support networks, so FIRST will select the teams that will do the best job of disseminating the knowledge accumulated through testing.

As noted above, the intent of this program is to test and improve the 2009 FRC Control System, give as many teams as possible early hands-on exposure, and reduce the learning curve for teams. This approach to beta testing is not perfect, but it brings us closer to the goal of creating the best control system possible for the 2009 season and beyond. Thank you all for your support in helping successfully launch FIRST’s new control system!

Go Teams!

2

Hi guys,
My team is very interested in helping out, so I tried to register…

but all I get is a blank page… could this be due to my ubuntu+firefox combination?

anyone else getting a blank page at:
http://www.usfirst.org/forms.aspx?ekfrm=9446

I’m getting the same blank page when I randomly enter numbers instead of 9446 so i’m guessing it’s either a typo or the page isn’t up yet…

either way… anyone get any further with this than a blank page?

Thanks!

-Leav

p.s.
just emailed them about it…

3

Dude, I’m getting a blank page also???

4

ditto on the blank page

5

That’s the link and it was up and working when the email originally arrived.
Maybe 1500 applications brought it down…

FRC 2009 Beta Test Application.doc (48.5 KB)


FRC 2009 Beta Test Application.doc (48.5 KB)

6

wow thanks FIRST for that FTC beta application :rolleyes:
wish i had an FRC team to test this with :smiley:

7

so what, we don’t get to submit an application? the kids gave it a good hard day’s work… :frowning:

-Leav

8

I’m sure the FIRST web crew will fix it after they get back from their weekend off.

9

oops! forgot Sunday isn’t a workday in the states :stuck_out_tongue: sorry!

10

Some of you maybe have seen the email about the beta test program for the 2009 FRC control system. If not, you can find the text here. In summary, FIRST is looking for a few good teams to start using the control system; incorporating such maneuvers as image-based control, navigation using wheel encoders and a gyro, and implementation of a transmission shifting algorithm.
But, in my mind the most important part of this program is the following: The teams that participate will be given a challenge, which is to teach and demonstrate the control system to EVERY other team that wants to learn. Here’s where many of you come in. You might not be applying to the beta test, but you should not let the opportunity go by without getting everything you can out of it. This means:

  1. Create and maintain relationships with one or more of the beta test teams once they are announced.
  2. Follow the progress of this team, read their bi-weekly posts on the FIRST forum, ask lots of questions, look at the code they publish.
  3. Go visit the team at their school, attend their seminar, watch the control system in action, get the look and feel of it.
  4. Take detailed notes about how you can better incorporate the new system into your design for the 2009 season.
  5. Come January, call the team again, ask them more questions, keep in touch, use their support, they are there to help you.
    By the way, you can ask questions about things other than the control system!!!

I see this program as a valuable way to establish contacts between teams, and as a way for rookie teams and struggling teams to develop a relationship with an experienced team that can guide them along and mentor them. In case you haven’t realized yet, the word “participate” in the title of my post does not necessarily mean apply for the test (though I would encourage all teams to discuss and consider it), but it means to get everything you possibly can out of it. Take advantage of this opportunity! :yikes:

Sincerely,
Micah

11

Here I disagree with you.

There is far more to be learned by hands on training, than by asking questions. FIRST is creating an unbalanced playing field be allowing those that are already established (3+ years in FIRST, “chairmans award winning” attributes) to get direct hands on experiance while the rest of the teams get to watch blogs.

I believe that, with this system, those that need the experiance the most (rookies) will be given the least amount of help.

Lets face it, the veteran teams that they want are the teams with already established software teams and this will give them a head start as to the nuances of the controller.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand why they are asking for beta testers. I just wish that they wouldn’t favor the teams that already have enough advantages.

As usual, this is JMHO.

12

To be blunt, the reason they want those teams (In my opinion, obviously) is because those are the teams poised to do the most good. If you send a unit to a rookie team, they’re not going to be able to do all the things FIRST wants them to do, and they won’t be able to help the community via workshops, etc. You need a team to be well established, have lots of resources and know how to do a thing like this. Yes, it’s going to be an advantage for the teams who get one, but how much of a disadvantage will we all be in if nobody gets one, and the bugs never get worked out of the system?

13

I couldn’t disagree more. These strong veteran teams will be developing code we can all use. Rookies most of all will benefit from the work of these teams.

These team will be laying the ground work for teams without the programming knowledge and ability. They will make it possible for other teams to build competitive robots.

14

Not just blogs, mind you–teams are being required to open up their shops to other teams (where one can see things up close, often by necessity if your shop’s anything like mine), hold a Saturday workshop (another opportunity to see everything up close), and release all their code (which not only lets me see what they’ve done on my own time, but gives me a chance to turn their own firepower against them come regionals). It certainly appears that FIRST is doing everything within their power to minimize the competitive advantage these teams could receive. I don’t know how one could get an edge on it, short of cheating.

15

I believe you made a big assumption about most veteran teams. For example, if we get picked, we will work as hard as possible to bring teams into our workshop to get as much of the same experience as we are getting. Don’t assume things about other teams please.

16

Giving the new system to the new teams early might be a better idea. The way it is now, the veteran teams selected for this program aren’t going to run into problems because they’ve been given the system early. Rookie teams are going to have to learn the system as well as go through every other problem rookie teams face programming-wise (such as how to program).

I’m not sure how many bugs veteran teams are going to find in this system anyway. Isn’t this just a small version of what NASA used on the mars rovers? (If not then someone correct me) I think NASA and NI would have already found any big problems with this system.

The veteran teams are going to help other teams learn how to use this system, but aren’t they still put at an advantage?

17

Remember that the judges (I happen to be one of them) will be looking for teams that are willing to actually show (aka hands on) the hardware / software in live workshops much more than the minimum requires. The challenge will be getting to those areas that are far away from the selected sites.

Depending upon the number of controllers allocated, this will be a big challenge. If the teams that are selected have the good of the entire FIRST community in mind, then organizing these workshops in various locations will help eliminate some of this problem.

I envision step by step instructions on various parts of the system (including both hardware and software) that will even help teams that don’t attend any workshops at all, because I believe that the attendance rate will be quite low as will the actual submission rate.

18

Just had a question, will it be up to the teams to get the word out about any workshops they will be holding in various areas or will we be able to post that on the blogs to get the word out quickly and effectively?

-thanks

19

I think the teams that agree to do this, and follow through with their plans, will gain a small advantage of “learning by doing”, but i believe the entire community will gain an advantage by having teams working with the system, finding issues and sharing knowledge. I think this will make the official season and competition much better.

In reality, the top performing teams would probably get to a high level of performance even in just the six weeks of build season, this will let them bring lots of other teams with them this fall.

It will take a lot of work and effort and I applaud every team that is selected.

20

I can see how the newer teams might be worried about the advantages here, but I think if the judges do their jobs correctly, teams that already have a history of working with other teams will be chosen. For example, for the last two months, we have been running labview seminars for all of the local teams every other week. It started as an idea that we were in a panic over the new control system and wanted to train our kids over the summer, but then we realized we could just as easily invite all the other teams in the area to show up too. We also post it on our forum (you have to be logged in to see & download files) so that everyone can access it, especially if they miss a class.

Think about it, if you are going into your second year of FIRST and struggled to just barely program your robot last year, you may have even gotten some help from local teams… would you like to be selected and struggle your way through fighting out the bugs of the new control system? or be able to tag along with a more experienced team that might be able to move past the stages of troubleshooting bugs and actually be able to show you how to use the system? I think some people are underestimating the potential for major bugs in this system. Nothing against NI - we are VERY excited for this control system, but any engineer can tell you at the very first stages of development and Beta test, there are going to be a ton of bugs to work through. Beta teams will use the controller in ways the designers never thought of, and this is going to end up as MUCH more of a testing and troubleshooting environment than it is going to be “learning and gaining advantage over teams that dont have it”. But we are thrilled that they are going to try and get as much hands on testing with this system before they actually send it out in the kit of parts… to be honest, we were scared that teams wouldnt get to touch the first model until kickoff… FIRST is doing us and themselves a HUGE service by putting out this program now… I see very little need to argue about the advantages & disadvantages. My suggestion? If you dont win it but wanted to… find your closest team that did win, or even set up online with another team to see how you can help them, to see what you can learn from them on a day to day basis rather than just sulking and reading the blogs…

I am glad to see that FIRST is going to require teams to open up all of the code that they develop, as I think it might usher in a new age of teams sharing. I know the Rochester teams have a great history of helping eachother with everything from preseason training to build season sharing of resources & mentors, I’m hoping that this will get more regions to do the same.