TL;DR: Do you think FIRST would be favorable to expanding into collegiate leagues by way of Drone Racing?
This thread may be a bit different. I am a recent alumni of FRC team 2512 (go daredevils), currently attending the University of Minnesota Twin Cities. After a few weeks of class, I'm finally getting into the swing of things and I'm looking around for activities to diversify my college experience. Of course, there is GoFIRST team 'Snow Problem' that I was interested in, but ultimately decided against due to time constraints. I also looked at a few other clubs, but eventually I fell upon the RC Club subgroup of the AIAA (the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics) which I am currently in. The RC club in past years was devoted mostly to RC planes and helicopters, but under brand new leadership we are pivoting to racing drones.
Alright, I think that's enough context to get to my question. How favorable to drone racing, or expansion is general, do you think FIRST would be? I think that drone racing would fit in well as a 'next-step' after FRC, as it's sort of a miniaturized and more complex version of our FRC robots. I know that there is a great deal of interest in racing drones among college students, but college clubs tend to lack the amount of funds and community exposure to host competitions or start some sort of 'league'.
I also think that Drone Racing fulfills the aspects of FIRST's mission: it's accessible, engaging, and visually interesting for people of all ages. It's also a more internet-friendly sport than many others: via FPV, you can get the exact same view as the drivers and spectators actually at the venue (of course, nothing compares to the feeling of actually being there, in the atmosphere, etc.) Drone are relatively cheap and easy to fabricate, and the market is saturated with various components and designs that make every single drone unique.
Personally, I think it would be a great idea, and if anyone from FIRST is interested, I would be very interested in talking with them, and with my own university as well.
What do you guys think? Is it likely at all that FIRST would be willing to add a new division, or do you have any other input or advice? I am eager to hear what the community thinks.
You are probably not aware, but something similar to this has been attempted before, called CARD (Collegiate Aerial Robotics Demonstration). Some info can be found here. They were set up and competing at FIRST Champs in 2011, but unfortunately FIRST and CARD went in separate directions after that.
For my part, I think a collegiate level of competition is cool, but doesn’t belong in FIRST, for a couple of reasons.
First, by the time students get to college, they know their area of interest and (hopefully!) have a good idea of what they’re going to major in. A robotics competition isn’t going to draw the interest of the philosophy majors… it’s just going to be one of the extra-curricular programs engineering majors participate in. There’s no inspiration to be had there.
Second, FIRST has limited resources. Setting up and running a whole new level of competition would take away from all of FIRST’s other programs. I, for one, would not like to see resources diverted from FRC to support a college competition. FIRST already is running enough competitions - FRC, FTC, FLL, FLL Jr, and this past summer the new FIRST Global competition. Think about how many thousands upon thousands of teams that is.
Third, I think the real strength of FIRST is it’s mentor-based program. Kids aren’t just building robots, they’re working and learning alongside professional engineers and being inspired by those professionals. How do you incorporate that sort of mentorship into a college level competition? At that point, a school should be able to field a team of students with sufficient knowledge and expertise to go without mentorship.
So, while I would love to see a structured collegiate competition on the scale of FIRST, I don’t think FIRST is the right organization to bring it about.
I think actually did exist as a pilot program (no pun intended) for one year. I agree though, there’s definitely a disconnect for some students that do great in FRC, and then go to colleges that don’t have anything for them to follow up on.
Does your school have Formula SAE, Mini Baja, or any other vehicle projects?
I think the point of FIRST is that you can “go pro” with the skills you learn in the FIRST programs. In college, you can start doing the real world engineering that is supposed to be the follow up to FRC. This happens in the classroom, on internships, on personally directed projects, and also on these project centered teams (SAE competitions, etc.).
FIRST’s fundamental goal isn’t to have robotics competitions. It’s to inspire people to pursue and value STEM education, and the mechanism for which they do that is robotics competitions.
It’s never been clear to me what a “college level FIRST” competition would do to accomplish that goal. That’s essentially a program targeting those that are “already hooked”, with minimal impact on those “outside the tent”.
It sure would be cool for there to be some semi-pro robot sports that aren’t Battlebots, but that’s another thing, and not really in FIRST’s scope.
Bison Robotics has plenty of non-engineering majors! Pharmacy, Business, Art, Agriculture, Strategic Communications, Economics, AND EVEN Civil Engineering! Not sure if we have any Philosophy majors, but it wouldn’t surprise me.
Many collegiate robotics competitions promote diversification of participants. We try to run Bison Robotics like a small business and we recruit people from all majors.
I completely agree that there isn’t room for a collegiate level FIRST competition. It just doesn’t fit the goals of promoting STEM for K-12 students. By the time you’re in college, you probably either in a STEM field or you know that’s not for you.
I know that GOFIRST does much more than just 'Snow Problem. They participate in a number of collegiate robotics competitions which are all great “next level FIRST programs”. One example is the NASA Robotic Mining Compeittiiton. If you want to know more, PM CadandCookies or even me and I can put you in contact.
For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology
It’s right in the acronym. FIRST’s goal is to inspire kids to pursue careers in STEM fields. A colligeate competition really doesn’t fit that goal. The students involved in that have already decided to pursue careers in STEM.
On a side note, FIRST did run a small test drone-based competition. The drones had to perform tasks rather than race, which may not be as exciting, but its much more impressive IMHO. I think it was in 2011? I remember walking past the safety netting behind the FLL teams in St. Louis.
I think the only way a college program would be beneficial to FIRST’s aims is if it could be used as a play to draw interest in the K-12 programs. College sports is big business, and if you structure a tournament around existing rivalries (Alabama/Auburn, Michigan/Ohio State, Clemson/USC, Georgia/Georgia Tech, etc) and around the current FRC ecosystem (say, stock field, current robot rules, perhaps some advanced things legalized, build three robots) you could probably make it into something enjoyable to watch. But I wouldn’t dare attempt it without someone standing there ready to write a very large check to stage it.
This was the CARD demonstration that Jon referred to earlier. It was played on a blank 2011 FIRST field (no scoring racks or minibot towers or etc) with netting and some goals added. My understanding is they tried to continue without FIRST affiliation, but it didn’t really stick.
I think this is really the only argument to be made for a college FIRST program, not that it isn’t a strong one. It would be inspiration for younger students this time, not the students participating as it typically is.
Some kids get inspired to go into typical sports because they watched a lot of the college or professional leagues growing up. With the college leagues, there’s a real sense of “I’m not that far off from going to college, I can do that too.”
Also think about the value that college mentors bring to other FIRST programs. Realistically, FRC season could not overlap. And then what? FLL Season? When FRC students are mentoring FLL?
FIRST kind of has a good thing going for them right now with students teaching students and all.
I think adding another level of competition could really disrupt this nice balance.
Thanks Billfred, I was completely unaware of this when I was there, I simply walked past it and thought, “Huh, that’s cool,” and went back to the FRC pits.
The problem I see with one of these competitions for the students it is aimed at: it would have to be pure entertainment, almost like a basketball/hockey game. Younger students would attend but would only be able to watch rather than participate, and IMHO, the participation and working alongside mentors is where the real inspiration from FIRST comes from.
I would personally love to attend these events, but again, I am not the demographic FIRST is shooting for. I’ve already been inspired.
Battlebots is the closest thing to this, and I honestly don’t see many people flocking to STEM careers simply because of that.
To address your initial point of whether FIRST should expand into collegiate competition, I’m going to say no due to the time, engineering, and other commitments of both college students, professors, and volunteers (may of whom would overlap). For college students, there’s VEX U, Formula SAE, Power Racing, 24 Hours of Lemons, Battlebots, and a litany of engineering-type challenges. FIRST’s product has always been inspiration, not robots, so inspiration is where they should focus.
What I do believe FIRST should do is seek mentors outside of engineering disciplines in college. FIRST has always been about inspiration, and if we bring people outside the traditional umbrella to mentor those students in FIRST from outside the normal umbrella of engineering disciplines, then we’ll all be better off in both inspiring students and building a well-rounded future for everyone.
As for your second point… I’ll also unfortunately have to say no. CARD proved the concept worked in theory, but the builds were far too volatile, the field too complicated, and didn’t match the whole feeling or goal of FIRST when done. I doubt drones would be significantly different to warrant a second venture into that subgenre of robotics. FIRST doesn’t seem to be good with almost entirely spectator “sports”.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to get back to directly building robots, I really would. (for context: in college right now, sorely missing it.) But you’re preaching to the converted, mentors already build the robots in CAD, in our spare time, Ri3D and mentoring (though really we’re building students who build robots). They volunteer, build new programs, design their own games, etc. We’ve been inspired as both student and mentor, FIRST’s goal is to share that inspiration.
