FIRST giveth and FIRST taketh away.

FIRST General Forum
1

Posted by nick237 at 1/15/2001 11:51 PM EST

Engineer on team #237, sie h2o bots, from Watertown high school ct and sieman co.

Well FIRST did it again, they cheated us out of a % gain by changing the rules " again ". Up untill yesterday we had a 1.5 x doubler if an alliance stoped the clock prior to the last second, now you have to do it prior to 15 seconds or you get just x 1.0.
Next they said that a robot did not have to be on the stretcher to be in a game as long as they submited their coupon, Now they list what is the minimum that would be considered a robot and that this minimum must be on the cart to play, if your not there you get ZERO. The minimum is the whole robot…
There is a new print due out today or in the morning, the new print will address all the new and correct sizes and placements, assuming they have not made the new field round and changed the ramp into a 20’ wide pit filled with burning lava and spewing large bolders into the air.
FIRST is taking all the fun out of this years game and making it an inept JOKE. This latest change will certainly make any rookie teams think twice about joining next year. As a third year veteran who finds this game a seriouse challenge I feel sorry for all the new teams who are walking a path that was so hard for us three years ago. If this was our first year I wonder if we would want to try again next year.
Nick237

2

Posted by Anton Abaya at 1/16/2001 12:09 AM EST

Coach on team #419, Rambots, from UMass Boston / BC High and NASA, Mathsoft, Solidworks.

In Reply to: FIRST giveth and FIRST taketh away.
Posted by nick237 on 1/15/2001 11:51 PM EST:

i feel your pain.

on the other hand, there might be an underlying reason why FIRST changed this rule. I can only speculate on that one.

but if you think about it, FIRST has several constraints when designing a competition and such constraints I guess are to regulate the freedom and make sure teams do not get unfair advantages. But here are a few of the things i often think about when I ponder on what FIRST has made for us this year (or every year).

  1. Fair and Competitive Gameplay, FIRST wants both veterans and rookies to have an equal opportunity to build robots that are not based on experience with the FIRST competition, but more of one that brings out talent and engineering design to its fullest.

  2. Students, because it is a high school competition, I imagine FIRST trying to design a comp. that need not be that complicated and would not be so big an engineering problem that h/s students are scared away.

  3. Continuous Gameplay… let’s face it, for FIRST to become even bigger than what is is already, it needs MORE public & media attention. The only way it can accomplish that is to make a competition that will bring lots of cool looking bots that look good on TV!

  4. It’s their 10th year! They’re trying hard I’m sure. With their office in New Hampshire, this non-profit organization is doing the best they can to celebrate their 10 years. They’re keeping things to themselves so as to surprise us. They almost always do.

  5. Eh… From my experience, the real world will have rules that change, lawyers that are irritating, managers and adminstration, politics, etc… they all get in the way and are constraints to the building / fun process… But hey, it’s the only way we can all be happy right?

The adjustment of the score system was a bum. I had a feeling it was an easy score for us. But in reality it’s an easy score for everyone, so not much was really lost. It’s just an added challenge that I cannot wait to engage!

-anton

3

Posted by nick237 at 1/16/2001 10:25 PM EST

Engineer on team #237, sie h2o bots, from Watertown high school ct and sieman co.

In Reply to: aye, it’s freedom vs. regulation…
Posted by Anton Abaya on 1/16/2001 12:09 AM EST:

It would seem that every one except me feels that FIRST has changed the rules for the best and I bow to the majority. What upsets me and makes me peeved is that I spend days working on a plan or theory only to have FIRST change things a few days later.
I spent three days working on a system that incorporated a 34 1/2" wide goal base and when I was finished FIRST changed it to 36 1/2", scrap three days of effort. By changing the base size how did that make things more even?
I spent time working on a scoring system that had the 1.5 doubler at +1 second, then it becomes +16 seconds
That change will only help teams that are experienced and can take the pressures of the game, this change is not equal for the rookie teams.
These are some of the things that make me speak up and sure I love FIRST and for all that it stands as any other team does but I dont have to stay silent when I need to express my concernes.
Nick237

: i feel your pain.

: on the other hand, there might be an underlying reason why FIRST changed this rule. I can only speculate on that one.

: but if you think about it, FIRST has several constraints when designing a competition and such constraints I guess are to regulate the freedom and make sure teams do not get unfair advantages. But here are a few of the things i often think about when I ponder on what FIRST has made for us this year (or every year).

: 1. Fair and Competitive Gameplay, FIRST wants both veterans and rookies to have an equal opportunity to build robots that are not based on experience with the FIRST competition, but more of one that brings out talent and engineering design to its fullest.

: 2. Students, because it is a high school competition, I imagine FIRST trying to design a comp. that need not be that complicated and would not be so big an engineering problem that h/s students are scared away.

: 3. Continuous Gameplay… let’s face it, for FIRST to become even bigger than what is is already, it needs MORE public & media attention. The only way it can accomplish that is to make a competition that will bring lots of cool looking bots that look good on TV!

: 4. It’s their 10th year! They’re trying hard I’m sure. With their office in New Hampshire, this non-profit organization is doing the best they can to celebrate their 10 years. They’re keeping things to themselves so as to surprise us. They almost always do.

: 5. Eh… From my experience, the real world will have rules that change, lawyers that are irritating, managers and adminstration, politics, etc… they all get in the way and are constraints to the building / fun process… But hey, it’s the only way we can all be happy right?

: The adjustment of the score system was a bum. I had a feeling it was an easy score for us. But in reality it’s an easy score for everyone, so not much was really lost. It’s just an added challenge that I cannot wait to engage!

: -anton

4

Posted by Anton Abaya at 1/18/2001 1:57 AM EST

Coach on team #419, Rambots, from UMass Boston / BC High and NASA, Mathsoft, Solidworks.

In Reply to: Re: Majority rules
Posted by nick237 on 1/16/2001 10:25 PM EST:

all your pains and suffering, trust me i feel ya. we originally had a design that was in the process of completion until we found out that due to the change of materials from last yaer, may not be as easy to make any longer… or even purchase from anywhere.

so we sorta need to find a different solution when we were so close to a final one.

eh, we’re in the same boat i guess. so it really comes down to whomever can come up with the best combination of materials and ingenuity…

-anton

5

Posted by Joe Ross at 1/16/2001 12:55 AM EST

Engineer on team #330, Beach Bot 2001, from Hope Chapel Academy and NASA/JPL and J&F Machine.

In Reply to: FIRST giveth and FIRST taketh away.
Posted by nick237 on 1/15/2001 11:51 PM EST:

While I don’t like the fact that FIRST has changed the rules on us, I do feel that they have addressed some serious flaws

:Up untill yesterday we had a 1.5 x doubler if an alliance stoped the clock prior to the last second, now you have to do it prior to 15 seconds or you get just x 1.0.

This adds a little bit more to the strategy element. Before the rules change everyone would automatically get the 1.5x because they would end the match with 1 second left. Now it actually takes a little work to get that reward.

: Next they said that a robot did not have to be on the stretcher to be in a game as long as they submited their coupon, Now they list what is the minimum that would be considered a robot and that this minimum must be on the cart to play, if your not there you get ZERO. The minimum is the whole robot…

I do not consider this a rule change except for the fact that if you don’t show, you get a zero. The way that I read the new rules GM25 and SC11 are that you can still turn in a stretcher coupon and not have a robot on the stretcher. Rule GM25 only fdefines what you must on the stretcher to be considered a robot for scoring purposes.

SC11 is the only change and the only time it should affect you is if your whole team misses a match. Even if you don’t have a robot, you can still send a team member to the field and get your points.

: There is a new print due out today or in the morning, the new print will address all the new and correct sizes and placements, assuming they have not made the new field round and changed the ramp into a 20’ wide pit filled with burning lava and spewing large bolders into the air.

You think they might do this! cool! Spewing lava is the best! :wink:

The most significant rule change that I have seen is the double switch on the use on suction cups. By now it is probably to late for a serious team to redesign their robot to use suction cups.

Joe Ross
Beach Bot, Team 330

6

Posted by Jason Morrella at 1/16/2001 4:06 AM EST

Coach on team #254, Cheesy Poofs, from Bellarmine College Prep & others and NASA Ames/Cypress Semiconductor/Unity Care.

In Reply to: FIRST giveth and FIRST taketh away.
Posted by nick237 on 1/15/2001 11:51 PM EST:

: Well FIRST did it again, they cheated us out of a % gain by changing the rules " again ".

I disagree - they didn’t cheat anyone, any rule change affects everyone equally. They recognized a pointless flaw in the game (stopping with 1 second everytime) and fixed it.

: Next they said that a robot did not have to be on the stretcher to be in a game as long as they submited their coupon, Now they list what is the minimum that would be considered a robot and that this minimum must be on the cart to play, if your not there you get ZERO. The minimum is the whole robot…

Another VERY GOOD rule change by FIRST. You can still get the 10 pts for the stretcher, but why should you get 10 robot pts if there is no robot? Again, I commend them on recognizing a flawed rule and fixing it.

: FIRST is taking all the fun out of this years game and making it an inept JOKE. This latest change will certainly make any rookie teams think twice about joining next year.

I am in contact with many rookie teams, and they are doing well. To their credit, they are as or more prepared than rookie teams have been the last two years (IMHO)- and I have not heard any say they “regret starting a team” or don’t plan to come back next year. We just had a day of 4 different workshops run by veteran teams for 1st & 2nd year teams here in the Bay Area…is there really any better sign of how happy returning & new teams are with this program?
I think sometimes we forget that rules change every year, that teams worry (complain) every year about rule changes & how hard the game may be, and everything works out every year. Myself - I still kind of wish there was some head to head play - but I have no doubt the game will be fun, challenging, interesting, and deemed a success in the end. I have learned this…when in doubt - I give Dean, Woody, & the FIRST Manchester team the benefit of the doubt - and every year we get a great competition.

Can’t wait to see everyone in March & April!!!

7

Posted by Eric Tarnowski at 1/16/2001 9:16 AM EST

Student on team #535, G-Force, from Huntington North High School and United Technologies Electronic Controls.

In Reply to: FIRST giveth and FIRST taketh away.
Posted by nick237 on 1/15/2001 11:51 PM EST:

: FIRST is taking all the fun out of this years game and making it an inept JOKE. This latest change will certainly make any rookie teams think twice about joining next year. As a third year veteran who finds this game a seriouse challenge I feel sorry for all the new teams who are walking a path that was so hard for us three years ago. If this was our first year I wonder if we would want to try again next year.
: Nick23

As the student captain of a rookie team I would like to inform you that we are not phased by the complexities of this year’s game, but rather, feel they add an extra level of excitement and challenge to a competition that, up to this point, had begun to get redundant and predictable. In fact, we feel we are at an advantage due to the major differences in this year’s game over those of previous years. While many teams are trying to adapt existing design philosophies to a different type of game, we are forming ours around it.

See you in Orlando,

Eric Tarnowski

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Posted by Andy Baker at 1/16/2001 11:02 AM EST

Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

In Reply to: Rookie viewpoint
Posted by Eric Tarnowski on 1/16/2001 9:16 AM EST:

Eric,

It’s good to see you on this Forum. I hope that all things are well in Huntington with G-Force.

Keep up the positive attitude and you’ll go far.

BTW, nice website!

Andy B.

9

Posted by Eric Reed at 1/16/2001 11:00 AM EST

Coach on team #481, NASA Ames / De Anza High School, from De Anza High School and It could be you!.

In Reply to: FIRST giveth and FIRST taketh away.
Posted by nick237 on 1/15/2001 11:51 PM EST:

I agree that it would be ideal for the rules to be set in stone at the kickoff, but consider this: Up to that day, FIRST probably had ten people consider the implications of all the rules. The day after the kickoff, probably 5,000 people started poring over the game. Inevitably there will be problems that FIRST didn’t recognize.

My 2c,

Eric - Team 481

10

Posted by Peter Krumdieck at 1/16/2001 12:53 PM EST

Engineer on team #353, Pobots, from POB Central School District.

In Reply to: FIRST giveth and FIRST taketh away.
Posted by nick237 on 1/15/2001 11:51 PM EST:

: Well FIRST did it again, they cheated us out of a % gain by changing the rules " again ". Up untill yesterday we had a 1.5 x doubler if an alliance stoped the clock prior to the last second, now you have to do it prior to 15 seconds or you get just x 1.0.
: Next they said that a robot did not have to be on the stretcher to be in a game as long as they submited their coupon, Now they list what is the minimum that would be considered a robot and that this minimum must be on the cart to play, if your not there you get ZERO. The minimum is the whole robot…
: There is a new print due out today or in the morning, the new print will address all the new and correct sizes and placements, assuming they have not made the new field round and changed the ramp into a 20’ wide pit filled with burning lava and spewing large bolders into the air.
: FIRST is taking all the fun out of this years game and making it an inept JOKE. This latest change will certainly make any rookie teams think twice about joining next year. As a third year veteran who finds this game a seriouse challenge I feel sorry for all the new teams who are walking a path that was so hard for us three years ago. If this was our first year I wonder if we would want to try again next year.
: Nick237

Nick:

Update #2 -
Q1 & A1 clearly say that the stretcher may be used w/o a 'bot. It further indicates that you would get 10 points for the stretcher in the end zone (but no points for the 'bot that’s not there).

Update #4 -
GM25 defines the minimum robot that MAY be used on the stretcher. My take is that in order to get the 10 points for the 'bot (instead of just 10 for the stretcher)it has to be of the newly defined “minimum” configuration and not just spare parts.

Anyone else?

-pete

11

Posted by Patrick Dingle at 1/16/2001 8:09 PM EST

Other on team #639, Red B^2, from Ithaca High School and Cornell University.

In Reply to: Not so fast there partner.
Posted by Peter Krumdieck on 1/16/2001 12:53 PM EST:

I agree. This update definately does not overrule the update in 2. They would have specifically stated so if it did. This update simply defines what a robot is (yes, it depends on what the definition of is is) if you plan to use the strecher.

Patrick

p.s. Our rookie team has absolutely no doubt at all that we would like to sign up again next year.

: : Well FIRST did it again, they cheated us out of a % gain by changing the rules " again ". Up untill yesterday we had a 1.5 x doubler if an alliance stoped the clock prior to the last second, now you have to do it prior to 15 seconds or you get just x 1.0.
: : Next they said that a robot did not have to be on the stretcher to be in a game as long as they submited their coupon, Now they list what is the minimum that would be considered a robot and that this minimum must be on the cart to play, if your not there you get ZERO. The minimum is the whole robot…
: : There is a new print due out today or in the morning, the new print will address all the new and correct sizes and placements, assuming they have not made the new field round and changed the ramp into a 20’ wide pit filled with burning lava and spewing large bolders into the air.
: : FIRST is taking all the fun out of this years game and making it an inept JOKE. This latest change will certainly make any rookie teams think twice about joining next year. As a third year veteran who finds this game a seriouse challenge I feel sorry for all the new teams who are walking a path that was so hard for us three years ago. If this was our first year I wonder if we would want to try again next year.
: : Nick237

: Nick:

: Update #2 -
: Q1 & A1 clearly say that the stretcher may be used w/o a 'bot. It further indicates that you would get 10 points for the stretcher in the end zone (but no points for the 'bot that’s not there).

: Update #4 -
: GM25 defines the minimum robot that MAY be used on the stretcher. My take is that in order to get the 10 points for the 'bot (instead of just 10 for the stretcher)it has to be of the newly defined “minimum” configuration and not just spare parts.

: Anyone else?

: -pete

12