FIRST in Michigan Thoughts/Impressions

Now that it’s over, I just wanted to post how well I thought FIRST in Michigan went. I really think this format will help get more teams involved.

My overall grade would be an A.

Things I liked:

  • More local events - This saved us a lot of money by not having to pay for a hotel, and also meant less time away from family.
  • Lower Cost - The district events are a real bargain compared to regular regionals. For me the pack in even more excitement in with the faster match pace and more intimate environment.
  • Schedule - Check-in on Thursday evening with qualifying matches late morning Friday and Saturday morning. This significantly reduces our time away from School/Work.
  • The Bag - This saved us so much hassle not having to deal with shipping our robot in a crate to each competition.
  • 12 Qualifying Matches - It meant less time between matches, but after experiencing this format it was tough to go back to the old way. It was a real disappointment to only play 8 at the State Championship.
  • Volunteers - The volunteers did a fantastic job putting on all of the district events I attended. Generally. they seemed to go smoother than the State Championship.

My only real complaints was that the State Championship wasn’t more like the district events.

  • With the higher team count at the State Championship, playing 12 matches is more difficult, but I think we should have started playing qualifying matches on Thursday afternoon. Extend the schedule a little later in the day and we could have all played 12 matches.
  • The cost to attend Ypsilanti seems way out of line with the value we get from the district events.

My 2 cents

Actually, after going through a couple districts, I wonder if even the championships are going to measure up.

$6k for potentially 8 matches if you don’t make elims…

I do have a point for improvement. Make the time on Thursday from 4 to 8. 6 to 10 is simply too late. Likewise, the time on Thursday needs to end at 7. We need to have a little time to enjoy being in a different place. With the current hours, you feel so jammed together that you don’t have time to enjoy it.

Some of the timing was driven by venues, for instance at Troy we didn’t get the gym until 2:30 on Thursday, when the last class ended. Based on the success at Troy this year this may be relaxed in the future.

There is also somewhat of a volunteer issue. Starting later enables kids to come after school and adults to lose one less day of work. For instance, I was able to get in 3 events for the lost work cost of about two standard regionals. Of course with the local economy in a tailspin this may not be an issue next year.

Cheers

I enjoyed the new system, although the fanfare we were used to wasnt what it was at the West Michign regionals we had attended previously, it was made up for eazily, in my mind, by having two competitions instead of 1 and more matches at a single competition.

I really like the idea of state championships even though we opted not to attend, I hope to in the future, and i think that this is a step forward for first growing and reaching out to new people previously not involved before.

The text below is what I sent to some people at FIRST HQ. Please note that I wrote this before the Michigan State Championship:

"I have a unique perspective on this “experiment” as I have been at a normal regional (Midwest) with my team as a participant, a volunteer at a Michigan District (Kettering), and a participant with my team at a Michigan District (Cass Tech).

To me, the experiment is a collection of smaller experiments that are grouped together in the Michigan pilot. I know that this thinking is consistent with what the FiM folks have been proposing for some time.

Let’s look at them individually:

(1) Keep your robot - This is fantastic in my opinion. It may eventually eliminate the feeling that teams have regarding a second robot. Right now, I can tell you that teams who have a second robot have a distinct advantage to teams that do not. The “autonomous era” has brought us the practice robot. If the “keep your robot” rule exists next year, then my team will seriously consider not building a second robot. This will save teams time in the long run! The bag system, while a little unorthodox, is a pretty good system. It does rely heavily on GP. The one item I would like to see changed is that you must have another FIRST team sign you in and out. Right now you just need someone not directly associated with your team. It really forces the veterans in a region to help out the rookies. We helped three rookies that we normally would not have even known about, but we were extra concerned this year. This really is one item that can really help FRC have long term sustainable growth from a human resources point of view (as opposed to financial). The 8 hours you get with your robot because of no practice day (see #2 below) is beneficial because you are at your shop with your tools. Again, teams without resources need help from other local teams in this area but I have faith that the veteran teams can really step it up in this area. This small piece of the experiment can be implemented in 2010 independent of the district model and save FIRST a lot of money in drayage and shipping.

(2) Two day events (eliminate Thursday) – This item has saved me from taking off two extra days from work, which is big in today’s environment. Moving the awards to all on Saturday is a great move. It does make for a long Friday, but not taking off Thursday from work is great. Thursday load in starts at 6pm and teams bring their robot with their pit stuff. This worked way better than I expected. The pits were open until 9 (or 10)pm and teams got some practice in and some pit time. Kettering ran much better on Friday than Cass Tech, but attribute that to rookie regional syndrome as Kettering has run an off season event for several years. With that said, Cass Tech was 45 minutes ahead of schedule on Saturday and, in my opinion, will be one of the better districts for years to come (more on this later). This small piece of the experiment can also be implemented in 2010 independent of the district model.

(3) 12 Matches – This is related to #2 above and was the main contributor to the long Friday, but it was worth it. Forget about teams like mine (67, 469, 503, 1701, etc.), because we will play more matches by adding Regional events. This model is better for rookies who are ill prepared for their first event. There are several rookie and second year teams that did not make it out for their first 4 or 5 matches due to technical problems or inspection problems. This happened at Midwest and the two districts and was not isolated to the two districts. However, the teams that attended the district still had 7 or 8 more matches to go after they missed their first 4 or 5; at Midwest they only had 3 or 4. By simply rearranging the awards and making Friday slightly longer, Michigan was able to give each team 12 matches. This small piece of the experiment can also be implemented in 2010 independent of the district model.

(4) The District Model (2 reduced cost events) – This one is a bit tougher to expand for a couple of reasons that I will get into later. This relies heavily on the volunteers in the state / region, but it really works for Michigan. I can see other densely populated regions using it. California and the East coast come to mind. The good thing is that the other 3 items above do not depend on the district model to work. With that said, the district model is the future if we want to draw in more sustainable teams for FRC. Regionalizing the FIRST organization is a logical next step (boy, it sounds like discussions during the birth of our nation debating federal and state control … I digress) as getting local leadership to spearhead the district model is essential. For Michigan, we needed more events and we needed them at a lower cost. Two plays for the price of one will really help item 3 above as a team at Cass Tech was only able to attend match #12 as they had major issues. Now that they are going to a second district, they will get 12 plays. I guarantee this team will be back next year solely because of the “2 for 1” district model. Again, local leadership needs to be groomed and spearhead the district push but I really believe that some other regions will make the leap to the district model if given the option. I think if ground rules are set, then each region can be given a choice between standard and District structure. They can choose what works fro them.

Now about Cass Tech … it was one heck of a venue. They had volunteer coordinator issues early, but the amazing venue and atmosphere did not reduce the quality of event over a regular regional at all. The only thing missing was the fancy expensive lighting. The atmosphere was awesome. I truly believe you should come to one of the remaining events in Michigan. I strongly suggest you come to the Troy Athens district during week 5. You really must see this for yourself to have a true appreciation. I know that you are very busy, but there are plenty of us here who can help facilitate any special transportation needs you may have (picking up at airport, hotel accommodations, etc.). I think you will have a unique perspective based on your original vision of FIRST and can make much more educated comments on whether the district model is beneficial to FRC. I was skeptical at first, but now I am a believer."

I think this year was the best in the four years that i have been involved with First. Well, except for that double cap at an off-season. All the extra playing time was incredible and walking around the state championship with a silly grin on my face after the selections. All i could think to myself and tell people was," My god, 65 was the last pick,65! This is going to be good." I do agree that there should be some way to get 12 matches at states. Two other things, Kettering needs to rent bigger stands and any team attending a third event should not get another 8 hour open bag time. They already are getting acouple of days at a reduced cost and i think it would even things up abit.
Just think that in four years, if they keep the districts, you might say,“Back in my time we only got 8 matches.” and the kids will just look at you like you were crazy.

We would have an issue with that, in that our closest team was almost one hour away. It would be difficult to have someone drive out to open the bag and then come back to close it up or to even sit around. I do agree, I like the bags better than shipping though.

I have shared many of my thoughts in other threads.

Venues: I really like Paul’s idea of allowing for optional Regional or District/Regional Championship. I think the district model is a good way of getting larger High Schools and small engineering schools involved. A huge percentage of Kettering students come from FIRST. By the way, I predict Cass Tech to become one of the premier venues for a Competition. The atmosphere was fantastic there.

Bagging: Bagging system was fantastic. It was actually kind of fun Running around the building trying to find someone to sign for the bag. It was also a useful practice to have an alotted time to work work on things. 8 hours when well organzied can go a long way. 8 hours when poorly thought out can leave you with a mess or moral dilema. To me this stresses the needs of planning and execution so much better than the Thursday scrambles ever did.

Rookies: Paul’s right that this system actually helped us work with Rookie teams better. Usually we do a preseason presentation for Rookies and then throw them to the wolves (we would still anser emails and stuff). This year we were able to help two teams out a lot more. Both of those teams had really great Rookie seasons with both winning at least 1 Rookie Allstar, and one of the Rookies backed their way into a District Championship while the other was an Alliance captain at the State Championship.

State Championship: I had to watch this from a far, but the competition level there was excellent. It made this game fun to watch, even in the qualifying rounds. With so many good teams, all of the matches were extremely close. On paper who would have thought that the Quarter finals between 65, 217, and 67 against 2834, 33, an 68 would have been so close. Almost every match was within a Supercell. With 60+ teams, I don’t know that they can get 12 matches in. That would require 120 matches. That is a lot. Some options could be to bring in weighted records from district events. Otherwise maybe push it to 10 matches. There is no need for an entire practice day. Maybe 1 round to make sure everybody is still compatible with the field, but not a whole day. Actually a robot parade to start things off instead of a practice match. My biggest concern with the State Championship, is the Value factor. I hope it doesn’t suffer from too little play time relative to how much it costs. I know this factor kept several teams from attending this year. Now that the reality of only 24 of 64 teams playing in the elims, I fear a lot of teams that are good enough to qualify for States, but know they are not a top 24 will not attend unless it is more affordable.

Points System: Overall I think it is really good, but there are some concerns I would like to see addressed. With the exception of the WFFA, all other awards should have points. I understand that the culture awards are supposed to be worth more than points, but seriously get an award, you get some points. Otherwise I think it worked really well. It had a good blend of an exeptional weekend will qualify you for States and well as consistent good performance. Only allowing your first 2 events to count for points should stand.

Sustainability:
Looking through the numbers of the FIRST financials, and then applying some of those numbers, the gravity of some scary truths can be a bit overwhelming. Most teams are playing with donated budgets on fields that realy on donations at events that rely on donations. Kudos to the teams that earn their money via bake sales and car washes, but the fact remains that most teams are playing with other peoples money. This is going to be a real problem next year. A large portion of the FIRST budget comes from sponsors that are having a very rough year. Many of them have had to ask for money from the govenment (after their FIRST money had been doled out already). The FiM Pilot stresses value and it does a really good job of that. **While a lot of people are concerned with the conversion from Steak to Hamburger, I say 2 juicy hamburgers are way better than no Steak at all. **I know that I could Raise $5000 through fundraisers and small donations. Heck I could charge 30 kids $100 to be on the team and there is $3000. With the FiM model, I could run a team indefinitely playing 2 district events for $6K. Two events is enough to keep kids excited and inspired. 24+ matches is enough for them to learn what this thing is about. With the current FRC model where $7K might get you about 8 matches, I think I would have a hard time keeping a team going. I would then down convert the team to FTC, Vex, or maybe even try to bring a BEST district (cost about $30K for 12+ teams). This would compromise the goals of what I want to teach the kids, but would be better than a poor attempt at FRC. I don’t think I will have to worry about any of this, because the District model solves these problems.

Other items under sustainability. The volunteer system of requiring a team sponsor volunteers is a great addition (is it still volunteering if it is mandatory?). OCCRA has done it for years. One possible change to that system for small teams could be that if they are under 10 students, they could get their volunteer credits in at another event if they are too short handed at the event they are playing at. Another possibility would be having parents put some time in. Either way.

Sponsorship: This is going to get some groans from the vetran teams, but I would like to see a change with the big sponsors. I don’t see why a sponsor needs to give over $10K for the FiM Model. $5K for registration, $3500 for a robot, $1500 for incidentals. However, the extra funds I would like to see go towards a pool for States and the Championship. Qualify for States, here is your registration money, and $1000 for incidentals. Qualify for the Championship, here is registration and another $1000. Yes I know for many teams that $10K is not enought, but I helped a team this year that had a budget of about $6K. It can work. It made me ill to hear about teams that spent $80K or $100K in a single season. Most of that is travel, lodging and food for the team. The district model removes much of the need for that. I understand this is still and issue for remote teams, but with districts being significantly cheaper to run, they should be able to pop up everywhere.

FiM Overall: These people have done a really great job. Kudos to them for stepping out of the comfort zone of Status Quo and shaking things up. Don’t let the clapping of hands and patting on the backs drown out the need for improvements. There are some very real issues that have come up and need to be sorted out. Fix these things and you will have a great new way of doing FRC.

National Rollout: So with the improvement I have seen in many of the Mi teams from this FiM model, the scariest thing is how awesome this could make some other areas. Mi was already a powerhouse for good teams. I joked around about this, but imagine how cool Wii FIRST could be turning Midwest into a Regional Championship and doing the district model with Wisconsin, Indiana, and Illinois (this got a chuckle from somone on 111). With MWR being the Championship, you could turn Wisconsin and Boilermaker into districts. With the extra funds, have our IRI friends do an inseason district as well as maybe an event at U of I Champagne Urbana, and maybe Rose Hulman or Tri-State (are they under a differnt name now?). Throw in a couple more districts and you have what could be the premier Regional in the country. California has the assets to follow the FiM model more directly. East Coast is primed for a set up like this. Texas has been a breeding ground for BEST. The FiM model could be what it needs to convert BEST teams over to FIRST. You get the picture. (For all those teams in Arkansas, we will let you guys hang out in MI if you want). Once most areas have districts, then the Regionals can flip back to being open to whoever has enough points (locals get priority to save on travel funds). Do 4 weeks of Districts, 2 weeks of Regional Championships, the “The Championship”.

Editorial (stepping up on Soap Box):
For years now FRC has had Junior Varsity play level playing at Collegiate level productin events with Varsity Level play at the Championship at a Superbowl level event. This model scales the competition level very well with the cost to put on the competition. Sustainable sponsorship normally comes from producing something. The sports model produces entertainment. Most district events were only entertaining to FRC people just like most High School sports are only entertaining to the parents (there are exceptions). Watching States was truly exciting. Imagine if Nationals was made up of the top 24 teams from 13 Regional Championships. That worth the Pay Per View.

(Temporarily stepping down from Soap Box). Thanks.

When I initially heard about the District Events, I was really skeptical. The idea of holding events for cheaper costs seemed like a bad idea to me. But after attending five of the seven districts I think that I would say they were a great success. This season our team got to play 47 matches for $9500 where some teams paid $11000 for one regional and championship and will most like end with 20-25. Any system that allows me to play more matches for cheaper is something I can get behind. I do have a few event specific gripes, such as the seating at Kettering and the parking at the Traverse City, but on a whole every event was run smoothly and with few problems. I am very excited to see how the Cass Tech and Lansing events change and get better the next few years. I would like to see more matches at the State Championship, but that isn’t necessary, the event itself is pretty great.

One unexpected side effect of the districts for me is how little of other regions I watched and studied this year. Give me a Michigan team and I can give you a pretty good summary of their abilities, but teams like 399, 254, 968, 148, 2056 and 121 I have not really seen.

Overall the FIRST in Michigan model is great and I would love to see it adopted in other regions. It makes the competitions closer to home and cheaper, both of which are good things. I am excited to see where they will add an event next year, but I am sure it will be great like all the others.

From the outside: I like this system a lot more than I did initially, especially if some of the proposed changes are made. It’s got potential, and as has been said, some of the aspects involving shipping and such like could easily be translated to the whole FRC competition.

However, at least a couple of people have said that California is prime for the next part of the rollout. Sorry, but it isn’t. There are 2 main clusters of teams: Silicon Valley-Sacramento and Los Angeles-San Diego. Each has 2 regionals at this time, and could support probably 4-5 districts. Those aren’t the problem areas.

The problem areas are the central coast, the Central Valley, the northern part of the state, and the desert area between CA and NV. The central coast supports about 2-3 good teams and no other teams. The Central Valley does about the same. I’m not sure how many teams are in the large northern area of the state, but I’m fairly sure there aren’t many. There are ways to deal with this, including starting more teams in those areas, but the fact remains that until a district gets into those areas, those teams have to travel several hours and stay overnight for each and every event, even their “home” events.

However, when you go to the desert, there are several teams there. Some of them prefer the Vegas Regional to the L.A. Regional, for example. Even some L.A. teams have that preference due to space (or lack thereof) at the L.A. regional. There isn’t an easy solution. More space will help, but it probably won’t be enough. You could include Vegas and have a couple of district events there, but then the AZ teams who go there effectively don’t get a second event (there isn’t another one closer than Denver or Texas or Oklahoma). So they don’t like it. So you include AZ, and now you’ve got a huge “zone” with about a dozen or more district events. Where are you going to put the championship? You’ve got 6 regional venues to choose from and none are central…

I’m not saying that it couldn’t be done fairly soon, I’m saying that there are still some bugs to work out before it happens, such as isolated team groups who are closer to other “zones”. It’s like the teams in the UP in MI. Solve that somehow, and you should be able to take the district model nationwide and have some “open” events that anyone can play in for cross-pollination.

I too agree that CA can easily support 4-6 district events. 2 in NorCal, 2 in SoCal and 1-2 in between. Those teams in between may have to travel 4-6 hours to go to a district event will still find it more cost effective than traveling just as far to attend a regional event. One less day in a hotel and the money saved by the lower reg fee.

Also as a planning committee volunteer in Davis, we continue to struggle to get sponsorship money for that event, and next year will even be more difficult. Regionals cost upwards to $200k, district events can be held for considerably less. To me, the only question is where should the CA State Championship be held? Any SoCal/NorCal debators?

I would say New England would be prime for the “next step” of the districts. Extremely high team density. It would probably have to be over several states, just because they are so small. The current Manchester and Boston events could become districts, with Connecticut possibly being big enough to hold a double field New England Championship.

Both the West Michigan district and the Traverse city district had teams drive 4-6 hours to attend. That’s certainly not to far to drive to a district when it costs you half as much to compete.

Is it really fair that Michigan teams can have so many more matches then non-Michigan teams? They have the option to attend 5 events: two districts, the State Championship, one regional, and the Championships. That is insane.

Not only that but with the 40 lbs weight rule for bringing in new parts a team can essentially completely rebuild their bot during the season. As matter of fact I saw several teams, not just from Michigan, do just that. You have 6 weeks to build a robot and that’s it, but that is a discussion for another forum…

Absolutely not. That’s why everyone seems to have liked the system for the most part, and wants it to be implemented elsewhere. :]

Yeah but look at from someone who isn’t in Michigan. Thunder Chickens played in something like 90 matches. That double our number and we went to two regionals and ATL. Explain to me how that is fair. It would be awesome if every state was like that but it’s not. Maybe teams shouldn’t be able to go to a regional to make it fair. I don’t know…

I’m not entirely sure if this question belongs here, but I didn’t think the question required it’s own thread. [Feel free to move it]

This is by no means a jab at the credibility of the Michigan teams competing, but as talk continues of expanding the district structure elsewhere I’m curious how one aspect of the modified(?) competition rules worked.

Obviously it’s been known that teams had to “bag & zip-tie” their robots and bring them to their competition site. But how was this enforced? Was their some way of knowing/checking that a robot in fact stayed untouched between competitions? I assume FIRST instated some method of checking this beyond gracious professionalism, scouts honor, etc. such as unique/not-easily-reproducible ties or stickers that would make it known if the seal had been broken. But I wasn’t too clear how that worked.

Thunder Chickens played in something like 90 matches.

It was 85 matches, but who is counting?:wink:

SamC,

The zip ties were extremely unique with recorded serial numbers printed on them. We had a limited amount of zip ties with the serial numbers pre-printed. You had to have someone not associated with your team sign a zip tie in and out. We primarily had 469 sign ours. When you got to a competition, only an inspector could open your bag and seal it up (at least witness the opening and sealing).

Paul

Consider the rookies from your state whose season consisted of 11 matches each, which is 1/4 the number that Cyber Blue got to play. I can’t explain to you how that is fair either. What I can tell you is that it’s better to light a candle than curse the darkness.

So there are two guys who are competing to solve a labyrinth.

The first guy pays $20 to enter the labyrinth. The labyrinth is big and scary and he doesn’t like it very much. It is dark.

The second guy opens his wallet to pay to enter the labyrinth. Before he walks in, someone says “we’re piloting this new program to make it easier on labyrinth solvers”. They only charge him $18, and then hand him a candle…

I feel like the first guy, sometimes.

-John