FIRST Robotics Wish List

FIRST General Forum
#67

I think 2002 was MUCH more exciting than 2001. It had more action, and the head-to-head aspect makes it much more suspenseful than the “everyone hold hands and be friends” mentality of 2001. Granted, I think Zone Zeal had a little too much contact, but I think it struck a better balance than Diabolic Dynamics (that was the name for 2001, wasn’t it?).

What we really need, however is something like 2000. That game was awesome. From what little I saw of it, I loved it. A good game should have head-to-head action, multiple ways of scoring, and an offensive/defensive mix for strategy.

PS: Also, about the metal bars to stop impact tripping: that doesn’t work. The breakers will still trip, even if they are held over by a bar. It just makes it a pain to reset.

#68

*Originally posted by Jeff Waegelin *
**I think 2002 was MUCH more exciting than 2001. It had more action, and the head-to-head aspect makes it much more suspenseful than the “everyone hold hands and be friends” mentality of 2001. Granted, I think Zone Zeal had a little too much contact, but I think it struck a better balance than Diabolic Dynamics (that was the name for 2001, wasn’t it?).

What we really need, however is something like 2000. That game was awesome. From what little I saw of it, I loved it. A good game should have head-to-head action, multiple ways of scoring, and an offensive/defensive mix for strategy.

PS: Also, about the metal bars to stop impact tripping: that doesn’t work. The breakers will still trip, even if they are held over by a bar. It just makes it a pain to reset. **

I think parts of this year were exciting. I think the preliminary rounds were great but the finals sucked. Your stradegy changed. You weren’t trying to get as many points as possible, just more than the other team. this just sucked. I remember one match with beady where they grabbed the goals and that was the end of the match. little movement, low scoring, just plain boring. I think that they should keep the objective the same as the rounds go on, not change them. I think this is where last years game shone. Each team of 4 tried to do as well as possible which made it exciting, and also almost maxed out the point system. This is why people go to these things, to see what we can do, not to see who can play a waiting game and see who can grab everything the quickest and kill the game. I also think the teathers kinda took away from the game. While some times these teathers made the difference in a close game which made it exciting, many times it was just an easy way to score 10 for each team, which just inflated the scores. I liked how last year there were obsticles to get where you needed to be (teater totter and bars). I hope next year they integrate the pros of both games to make an exciting and difficult game that will keep everyone envolved and interested.

just my $2.02 :), i haven’t written something that long in a while

#69

Again, like I said, we need something like 2000. Something with a major field piece that allows for some sort of extra scoring, be it a bar, ramp, stairs, pit, platform, or whatever. It adds an extra dynamic that makes strategy tougher, less predictable, and more exciting.

#70

Personally, I thought that 2001’s finals were rather bland, unless you had two equal alliances going up against each other. You usually could know who was going to win, and there was nothing the losers could do about it. If they had somewhat inferior robots, they were pretty much screwed because they couldn’t affect the other person’s score.

This year’s finals, however, were different. It was frequently the case when the so-called underdogs came out on top (anyone remember VCU? #1 seed vs. #8 seed?), due to superior strategy rather than superior robot. I think that kind of balance is needed - there is a place for excellent robots, but if you don’t have an excellent team balance (driver, secondary, coach) the robot won’t get any points. Granted, in 2001 there was extreme influence on the team balance, but if your robot could only drive around you had no chance.

Anyway, those are my additional thoughts for right now.

Off to robot camp next week! Woo!

#71
  1. I wish that they would allow us to take our robot home after competition, as they did in 2001 (Coopertition FIRST) and then ship by the ship date (Tuesday after a competition) to the next venue.

Regardless, I wish they would announce whatever “repairs and new stuff” rule right from the beginning and stick to it.

  1. I would like to have another coach/mentor position. In 2001 at Regionals, we used this position primarily to give another high school student the opportunity to get out on the playing field and get into the competition atmosphere before driving/playing in a subsequent match.

At Nationals, our second coach was the person who had all the scouting and partner capabilities info. We only had a couple of minutes to plan strategy. Two people (one to discuss, the other to filter the info) were invaluable.

  1. They should continue to post the alliance pairings at the beginning of the competition. This adds another dimension to the game (discussing strategy with future partners). Those of us who weren’t actively repairing damage had a ball working on strategy with other teams.

  2. If Small parts is used again, ban the use of the “tools” section for use on the robot. Although it was very innovative, the use of file cards and tape measures seems to be at the edge of what is acceptable. What’s next, using a butane torch or a melting pot?

  3. Put an overall dollar limit on the robot. This would include everything purchased external to the kit. This would mean setting a standard price for raw materials (e.g. .25" aluminum).

  4. Instead of unlimited gears, sprockets, bearings, allow the use of anything in the Stock Drive Products or Boston Gear catalogs. Put a dollar amount limit.

  5. Zone Zeal reached (and maybe exceeded) the safe limit of “violence” that FIRST (with its message of gracious professionalism) can tolerate. If there is going to be more pushing, shoving, and grabbing than in the past, the referees -must- enforce the actual rules when a team goes over the top.

The actual rules of engagement must be more precise, as well. Although we, as competitors, can police ourselves, different interpretations of loosely worded rules lead to hard feelings.

That’s all for now,
Andrew, Team 356

#72

I actually felt that the amount of violence or contact was far less than anyone expected. I would really like to see a little bit more contact. I feel that this would promote the building or strong, durable robots that are not flimsy like many I saw in 2002.

Also, an elevated drivers’ stand would be nice so you can see if your goal grabber is fully attatched or if you are about to run over an extender.

#73

*Originally posted by sanddrag *
**Also, an elevated drivers’ stand would be nice so you can see if your goal grabber is fully attatched or if you are about to run over an extender. **

Now that is a good idea even a foot off the ground would be good. A kool thing also going with this train of thought is maybe have a few video screens in the hp station maybe one that is an overview of the feild or one of your robot.

#74

*Originally posted by Andrew *
**6. Instead of unlimited gears, sprockets, bearings, allow the use of anything in the Stock Drive Products or Boston Gear catalogs. Put a dollar amount limit.
**

This is a great alternative to SPI. SDP does not have as much other things, but they have tons more power transmission components.

As for what was wrong with Zone Zeal…

Too many times games turned into shoving matches. This was interesting for the players, but not for spectators. Also, this tore up the carpet.

One main thing that was present in '99 and '00, but not in '02 was the fact that you had to be off of the ground at the end of the match to get extra points. Sure, FIRST tried to get us away from the goals by giving us points for getting to the end zone, but they did not expect so many extensions.

If FIRST would’ve given us 20 points for robots being completely off of the ground at the end of the match, that would’ve added another dimension.

Another thing about Zone Zeal that was different from years past was the fact that almost all of the required tasks were easy to do by a robot. Grab a ball and put it in the goal… fairly easy. Latch onto a goal and push it around… easy. Latch onto two goals and push them around… somewhat easy. Grab three goals… hard (the only hard thing). FIRST initially made the task of lifting a goal difficult (by only grabbing the pipe and flange), but then backtracked and let us lift the goals easily by the metal trim on the edge of the goal.

My wish for future years is to make more functions of the game that are difficult to perform, as they have with every other year before 2002.

Of course, there needs to be a combination of this sort of task challenge with a game that is easy to understand and watch by spectators… that’s why we should play robo-basketball in 2003. :slight_smile:

Andy B.

#75

*Originally posted by sanddrag *
**I actually felt that the amount of violence or contact was far less than anyone expected. I would really like to see a little bit more contact. I feel that this would promote the building or strong, durable robots that are not flimsy like many I saw in 2002.

Also, an elevated drivers’ stand would be nice so you can see if your goal grabber is fully attatched or if you are about to run over an extender. **

The top part of our robot was so strong that we put it on the bottom of the crate and it never got bent. I think everyone kindof prepared for heavy contact but then realized that it really wasn’t necessary to win a match (for example, having the little robots or tape measures to score points instead of running back through people.) I think more contact was a good idea, with poor execution due to changing rules.

#76

I love the idea of having an elevated drivers stand. It is especially hard to even see your robot if you’r at ground level with it. a more “aerial” veiw would definitly help. that would also be great because it is close to impossible to even see your bot if your’s is the shortest on the feil and the tallest is parked DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF YOU!

P.S- and this is coming from me who is 6ft tall

#77

*Originally posted by Andrew *
**3. They should continue to post the alliance pairings at the beginning of the competition. This adds another dimension to the game (discussing strategy with future partners). Those of us who weren’t actively repairing damage had a ball working on strategy with other teams.
**

It depends on the philosophy. If FIRST wants to see the best improvised play possible, with elements of suspense to the players, they should keep it the way it is. If FIRST wants to see the best possible play, with strategies fully explored and thought out, which I believe may be more exciting for the audience, they should announce the pairings at the beginning of the competition.

Personally, I vote for the second.

#78

I would like to see another day added to the competition…

Wed. Unpacking, Tinkering, and Inspection Day
Thur. morning: Practice
Thur. afternoon: Qualifying Matches
Fri: Qualifying Matches
Sat morn: Qualifying Matches
Sat. aft: Elimination Matches

Wednesday would be used to unpack robots, tinker, and inspect. Only three team members would be allowed in the pits. The practice field would not be available for teams to use.

On Thursday, practice could start at 8:00 am, since robots are already unpacked and inspected. Since teams would be mostly ready to go for their first practice, you will have fewer no shows and teams can get the most out of their practices.

Although I love the chaos and adrenalin of the current practice day, it would make inspection much smoother if the number of people in the pits were fewer. Also, it takes us about 2 hours to get unpacked and ready to go, even when our robot is just coming out of the box. In three years, we have yet to make our first practice (usually scheduled for 10:00 am).

I envision that 1-3 team members would go out in advance of the team to get the robot prepped. On practice day, when the full team arrives, they would know that their robot is ready to go and could make the most of the practice and competition time.

This scheme would also give us another 1/2 day of matches, without increasing the amount of time away from school for the majority of the pre-college students.

Andrew
Team 356

#79

That would be great. They are always in a rush between matches and if a close call comes up on the score it takes more time. We would have more time to set up a more organized pit area for more efficient fixin’. There would also be the possiblility of testing robots on a tether just around the arena/event site. This time could also be used for some intense strategizing as most teams plan strategy in the minute or so they have before the starting buzzer of their match. Also, this time would help rookie teams (or any team for that matter) work out the problems with their robots. And if your robot is absolutely perfect and your strategy is all worked out, you can still go around the pits to get the inside scoop on team 123’s drive train or ball shooter etc.

There are just two concerns I have.

  1. There would be a lot of school work to make up after being out for 3 days or more depending on travel.

  2. I would not want to see teams take advantage of this time by using to add a variety of illegal parts and/or mechanisms or fabricate something new or make darastic changes or anything illegal like that.

I think this is a very worthwile idea. What does everyone else think?

#80

*Originally posted by Andrew *
**I would like to see another day added to the competition…

Wed. Unpacking, Tinkering, and Inspection Day
Thur. morning: Practice
Thur. afternoon: Qualifying Matches
Fri: Qualifying Matches
Sat morn: Qualifying Matches
Sat. aft: Elimination Matches

Wednesday would be used to unpack robots, tinker, and inspect. Only three team members would be allowed in the pits. The practice field would not be available for teams to use.

On Thursday, practice could start at 8:00 am, since robots are already unpacked and inspected. Since teams would be mostly ready to go for their first practice, you will have fewer no shows and teams can get the most out of their practices.

Although I love the chaos and adrenalin of the current practice day, it would make inspection much smoother if the number of people in the pits were fewer. Also, it takes us about 2 hours to get unpacked and ready to go, even when our robot is just coming out of the box. In three years, we have yet to make our first practice (usually scheduled for 10:00 am).

I envision that 1-3 team members would go out in advance of the team to get the robot prepped. On practice day, when the full team arrives, they would know that their robot is ready to go and could make the most of the practice and competition time.

This scheme would also give us another 1/2 day of matches, without increasing the amount of time away from school for the majority of the pre-college students.

Andrew
Team 356 **

I think these are good ideas, but might need a few changes. It would be nice to have an extra day, but that racks up the expenses for teams that have to stay in hotels. It also brings up the issue of missing school which was mentioned. I think only three people allowed per pit is a little small. You are going to be crowding your own pit, so if teams want to be cramped, they should have the option. Id like to see that raised to at least five. This plan also costs first more, because they have to rent out the facilities for an extra day, which is quite expensive. To rent the San Jose state event center was something like $8000+ a day, but overall these are good ideas

#81

*Originally posted by Andrew *
**I would like to see another day added to the competition…

Wed. Unpacking, Tinkering, and Inspection Day
Thur. morning: Practice
Thur. afternoon: Qualifying Matches
Fri: Qualifying Matches
Sat morn: Qualifying Matches
Sat. aft: Elimination Matches
**

How about have…

Thur. Unpacking, Tinkering, and Inspection Day
Fri. morning: Practice
Fri. afternoon: Qualifying Matches
Sat: Qualifying Matches
Sun. morn: Qualifying Matches
Sun. aft: Elimination Matches

You would still only miss two days of school, but you would spend your whole weekend with robotics. (if that is even a bad thing :wink: )
Any thoughts about that.

#82

*Originally posted by Rob Ribaudo *
Thur. Unpacking, Tinkering, and Inspection Day
Fri. morning: Practice
Fri. afternoon: Qualifying Matches
Sat: Qualifying Matches
Sun. morn: Qualifying Matches
Sun. aft: Elimination Matches

Good idea, but FIRST should keep competitions off of Sunday for two reasons. First is that many people like to attend religious services on Sunday. Second is that teams that travel to competitions would return home late on Sunday and wouldn’t be well rested for work / school on Monday.

Mike

#83

I would keep the extra day on Wednesday so I have time to recover after the comp. I think if it could be on Wednesday with no additional costs other than travel, and as many people allowed in the pits as normal, that would be great. Besides, what would you do on that day if you weren’t in the pits? Also, for teams who do not have the funding, this day would not be mandatory to attend. But that does make it kind of unfair though. Hmm. Still has some bugs to work out. Someone else want to give it a try and make it work??

#84

*Originally posted by Andrew *
**I would like to see another day added to the competition…

Wed. Unpacking, Tinkering, and Inspection Day
Thur. morning: Practice
Thur. afternoon: Qualifying Matches
Fri: Qualifying Matches
Sat morn: Qualifying Matches
Sat. aft: Elimination Matches

Wednesday would be used to unpack robots, tinker, and inspect. Only three team members would be allowed in the pits. The practice field would not be available for teams to use.

On Thursday, practice could start at 8:00 am, since robots are already unpacked and inspected. Since teams would be mostly ready to go for their first practice, you will have fewer no shows and teams can get the most out of their practices.

Although I love the chaos and adrenalin of the current practice day, it would make inspection much smoother if the number of people in the pits were fewer. Also, it takes us about 2 hours to get unpacked and ready to go, even when our robot is just coming out of the box. In three years, we have yet to make our first practice (usually scheduled for 10:00 am).

I envision that 1-3 team members would go out in advance of the team to get the robot prepped. On practice day, when the full team arrives, they would know that their robot is ready to go and could make the most of the practice and competition time.

This scheme would also give us another 1/2 day of matches, without increasing the amount of time away from school for the majority of the pre-college students.

Andrew
Team 356 **

I have a problem with this plan for personal reasons: with teams only having 1-3 members in the pit it causes problems for teams that had problems during the build season. Any team at the NYC regional should remember all for the problems we had due to our engineers bailing on us during the build season. Thanks to fully staffed teams like 237, 810 and 340 (not to mention many others) we were able to compete with a working robot by the end of Thursday. With the plan proposed we would only have unpacked our robot and done minor repairs, we also would have missed all of our practice matches and some qualification rounds. Therefore, we would have been victimized for an occurrence out of our control

Thankfully its going to be my team next year if the school ok’s it

#85

While extending the event to another day would be nice…there’s a number of logistical and other issues that would need to be resolved first…

-Almost every event has the equipment brought to it from another site. At every site I’ve worked, the truck is packed before we leave Saturday night(well, I guess Epcot is the exception), and then leaves Sunday morning for the next site. If the opening of the event was pushed back, setup would have to start on Monday morning(your average regional takes 2 days to set up), which would only give one day for the truck to get to the site.

-FIRST also uses the time between events as a “breather,” to keep from going completely insane during the 6 weeks :). If things were pushed ahead, they would not get this very important day off…

#86

More on the extra day…
I threw out the idea (and it wasn’t original to me. I’m sure I stole it from someone else) and didn’t really think about all the logistics.

I had assumed that FIRST must have the site under their jurisdiction on Tuesday and Wednesday to set up the playing field, shop, pits. If they set up the pits first on Tuesday, they could be setting up the playing field on Wednesday, while we have access to the pits. I don’t know the details about how FIRST works their magic, but this looked like a “no cost” solution.

I would recommend the 3 members at a time to keep the pits cleared. 5 members per team would be fine too. 20 members per team results in chaos, although it is the best chaos on the planet.

I think these are good ideas, but might need a few changes. It would be nice to have an extra day, but that racks up the expenses for teams that have to stay in hotels. It also brings up the issue of missing
school which was mentioned.

My original thought would be that 3 (probably adult) members of the team would fly/drive out the day early and that the rest of the team would come a day later. This would make the additional team expenses minimal.

The bad part of this, of course, is that fewer people would get the experience of unpacking the robot, tweaking, and seeing it start to come to life.

This year, I think we had a minimum of 10 people (mostly pre-college students) working in our pits from 8am-8pm on each practice day.

On the other hand, teams would be more likely to be inspected and would have more time to get their robot running.

I have a problem with this plan for personal reasons: with teams only having 1-3 members in the pit it causes problems for teams that had problems during the build season.

I actually think that teams who have problems in the build season (we were one in our rookie year in 2000) would have more “mental space” to get them resolved. With a less crowded (and noisy) pit and with the focus on getting unpacked and running (instead of also trying to make your practices) teams should be able to focus more on solving technical problems.

Since you will know in advance how much work you would have to do, it might be possible to petition the regional to allow extra personnel into the pits.

Above all, the objective for FIRST is to have all robots performing well in competition, while maintaining a balanced playing field for all teams.

Andrew
Team 356