FMS alternative

It is really nice that it is that versatile. I am so excited to see this!!:slight_smile:

Possibly… I tested with 2 of my children’s 7 inch Fire Tablets. The Amazon browser had some odd behavior. With 2 tablets connected. If I added a foul on 1 it would immediately show up on the second but it would take a good second or more before it showed up on the first tablet that initiated it. My theory was that it could only communicate one direction at a time and there was some backoff period after a transmit before it could receive data. Safari / Chrome performed much better. I worried about accidental double foul entry due to the latency of the initiating tablet.

I’m aware you can run chrome on a Fire Tablet but it isn’t officially supported and I didn’t want to count on it always being available. iPads are well built and last so I went that route. I’d be curious if someone else has better luck with Fire Tablets. Either newer or using a different browser.

Alright sounds good. Maybe you mentioned this, but can I use it without the plcs and use a tablet for manual scoring?

I’m running the official CA but I believe there is a fork of CA that supports manual scoring but I don’t believe Pat plans to add support in years where automated scoring is needed for timing related aspects of the game. i.e. amplified notes.

Ok, I did not know CA had no manual scoring. If I wanted something with manual scoring do you know what I should use?

Cheesy Arena Lite is a game agnostic version with manual scoring

Ok thank you.

Cheesy Arena Lite hasn’t been updated for almost 2 years. I don’t know if it supports the new radios. Hopefully it does

Does FMS offseason have manual scoring?

Cheesy Arena, Cheesy Arena Lite, FIRST FMS, and FIRST Offseason FMS support manual scoring. But only Cheesy Arena Lite supports manual REAL TIME scoring this year.

Yea, I’ve run into the same thing. I’m thinking about something custom, but for USB-C instead of Lightning. That way you can run it with some new, non-second-hand Android tablets (I’ve been looking at Lenovo’s Tab series). You can get PoE + Ethernet Data adapters, but they’re pretty niche and expensive unless you want to chain adapters, so making my own and making it a Grapple product is honestly probably cheaper (and more likely to stand up to big qty orders). I’ve got a few designs kicking around for next time I’m doing a big prototyping run from my board fab.

Hey, Jaci did you end up running JMS at the offseason comp you talked about earlier? If so how did it go?

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I am thinking if we could translates Modbus to something very cheap like ESPHome + ESP32 and some 3D printed part, we could build something with these in under $300.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007457782446.html

While it might not be as reliable as a PLC, $300 is a theft.

Would that work with the time to make the correct code?

@kylelanman What is the purpose of the plc in the setup and why could the work it is doing not be run on the computer running CA and just have an adapter for Modbus to USB? And a big thank you for everyone for answering my questions:)

not @kylelanman but in general:

PLC’s are used in the official FIRST field as well. They are the fields interface to physical things (i/o).

  1. Buttons at driver stations - how does the FMS computer know if one was pressed?
  2. AMP and Speaker scoring counters: how many and when were notes scored?
  3. in prior years games: how was an agitator in the upper goal run in 2022? The field needed to be able to fire up that motor. 2023: how did the field know when to illuminate lights on the charge station and know if it was level or not?

Could physical I/O (inputs and outputs), from the field reach the FMS computer in a different way with different hardware? Sure. Each year would require more in depth custom code to operate the field tho.

PLC’s offer a standard, predictable physical interface, along with a standardized programming approach that is rapidly deployable and flexible - as well as being known for high reliability and uptime and an industrial standard for automation.

I think I was reading here on CD some other events on the East Coast if I remember right, have chosen to use Arduinos and Raspberry Pi’s to perform the physical interface the field needs. They wrote all the code and did all the work selecting appropriate sensors. Its a horse a-pice compared to PLC’s (@kylelanman and the Roboteers) needed to do the same button and sensor selection as well as write ladder logic code for the PLC’s. Different solutions, similar inputs and reasons to choose one over the other (a team or individuals familiarity with certain programming language and low-level hardware selection may push them to a custom Arduino solution over industrialized and standardized PLC’s).

The PLC is effectively translating Ethernet/IP to Modbus TCP. There is some logic for the stack light and more for the note counters if full automated scoring is being utilized.

I’ve mentioned before that I think GitHub - ottowayi/pycomm3: A Python Ethernet/IP library for communicating with Allen-Bradley PLCs. could likely be used to replace the PLC in systems that only want the A/EStop functionality. I plan to attempt it but I haven’t had time yet.

BTW do you have a BOM yet for the PLC’s/ Field hardware setup you are making, my team is looking to make a minimum viable version for our practice field and eventually upgrade it to have stack lights, leds, etc.

You are probably most interested in the “Lite” version to begin with. If you plan to build out the full system eventually then you could start by building out the PLC, full (non-Lite) SCCs, and E/A Stops.