This is a valid point, but why should a replay be dependent on the type of match being played then? I’d argue if the logic applies to fouls, it applies to replays as well, since both scenarios could dramatically change the outcome
Because this is a unique circumstance in the rules, but it could occur during a match is the most important in determining the final outcome of the competition. Other sports have similar unique circumstance rules. For example, in football in the last 2 minutes, an “official injury timeout” becomes a team-specified time out to prevent teams from having players fake an injury to gain a time out late in the game. There are many other examples.
So the problem appears not to be with the replay itself, but with the ref misinterpreting the rescoring rule. We can’t control for that. I’m not sure how that’s relevant to suggestion that I’m making to remove the burden from a referee of trying to decide if a yellow card was sufficient to impact the outcome of the match.
Generally, you’re description is correct. However, it’s not that I “don’t want to leave it up to HR discretion because you believe leaving it open to judgement brings error into things.” It’s that we should limit judgements, correct or in error, in affecting the outcome of a match.
Let’s start with a fundamental premise: a yellow card is not a red card. The GDC intended that a first yellow card was a warning, and NOT so severe to be determinative of the outcome of a match.
A second point is that there is currently NO rule in place to deal with a first yellow card being awarded in the final match of the competition. Note that at Chezy Champs, the red card was awarded due to an interpretation that a blockade was actually two yellow cards, one for each robot. It was NOT an interpretation that a single yellow card should be elevated to a red card. There is not explicit provision for escalating a yellow card to a red card in the final match to compensate for the lack of an opportunity to incur another yellow card. That ALSO would require a new rule, which would certainly require a substantial amount of new verbage to describe under which circumstances such a yellow card should be elevated.
In contrast, I’m suggesting a very simple single line rule in a special circumstance.* Replay a final determinative match if a yellow card is incurred by the winning alliance. * No description of circumstances required. I don’t see why there would have to be a long rules section.
As for earlier playoff matches, as with the yellow card earlier in the competition, the threat of a future red card incents alliances to avoid getting a yellow card in the quarters in semis. They might lose outright in the finals if they get another yellow. It doesn’t matter how often it does or might occur. This rule proposal is not about getting justice for the losing alliance–it’s about providing the correct incentives to the winning alliance. Without this proposed rule, there is NO incentive to avoid getting a yellow card as the rules stand.
As someone pointed out earlier, the point of rules is to limit the amount of “common sense” required, especially since two people can disagree about what constitutes “common sense.” We are having that disagreement right now.
I will point out that that first interpretation was incorrect. However, the direct confirmation of my immediately previous statement was not available to the CC refs–that is a fact, not an opinion. This was not the refs’ fault. I’m not 100% sure it was anybody’s fault in particular, but definitely wasn’t the refs’ fault.
If I’m not mistaken, T03 was also possibly invoked. 2nd/3rd/Nth hand information though, so I don’t recall for sure.
I think the proposal for replay in finals only is… let’s put it this way: It’s like instant replay, there isn’t a good way to do it cleanly without SOMEBODY kicking up a fuss. If I was asked to come up with something, I would probably make it every single yellow to the winning side in an elimination match (Match 3 of any series, possibly Match 2 under certain conditions) is a replay (and have the field computer handle the replay determination so the refs won’t have to worry about it other than applying cards correctly). You’re about providing a deterrent to using this in finals; I’m saying that it’s entirely possible that somebody exploits that loophole to get TO finals, and if somebody took a yellow to knock my team out when we had a reasonably fair chance at beating them I wouldn’t be terribly happy, so apply it to all the possible elimination matches.
For example… let’s just say that some third-bot somewhere applied relatively incidental damaging contact inside 1678’s frame perimeter early in QF 1-3 after managing to squeak out a win in one of the earlier matches (we’ll leave how up to imaginations). Let’s just say that the damage was an awful lot of pneumatics stuff (easy to fix if you can find all the problems, and have the parts, but takes a little time, and often disables key portions of the robot mid-match). That third-bot gets a foul and a yellow card, but wins the match. 1678 is OUT, in QFs, because they were unable to play to their full potential, and their opponent, who broke a rule to accomplish that, goes on. If that seems right to you, then carry on. But it sure doesn’t seem right to me–if I was on 1678, you bet I’d be wondering why the replay rule applied in finals but not earlier.
But, inherently, by using a yellow card as a basis for replay, it DOES affect the outcome of that match. Not saying red cards are the right option here, in fact, I agree that they’re not, but I personally couldn’t justify a replay, for the same reasons.
With the system we currently have, an issue like this in finals is so rare, and so rarely fussed over, that I truly believe either of these “solutions” would cause a bigger issue than we have now.
Since I was at CC and directly heard the referees interpretation of the ruling, I’m certain of what was said, no hearsay. And that was a change from the initial ruling that there was just one yellow card.
As for the hypothetical about a yellow in a QF, that already happens. However, the risk of incurring a subsequent yellow card that becomes a red card appears to be a fairly strong deterrent for incurring those types of fouls because we don’t see many of these types of fouls and they don’t appear to be concentrated in the determinative matches of the QFs and SFs. (But somebody could check the FRC data on that point.) However, in the very last determinative match, that deterrent evaporates. The proposed replay rule makes the deterrent equivalent in the very last match to that of the earlier playoff matches. Again, this is not intended to deliver a “fair” result to the losing side–it’s to maintain a deterrent that is in place in all of the previous matches.
So we have a disagreement over the relative magnitude of the issue. There’s not a good way to resolve the qualitative difference between them. However, I’ll note that we have been involved in at least 3 red card matches during event finals since 2013, and each created substantial controversy. While in the first 2 cases, the matches were not determinative so wouldn’t have qualified for replay under this rule proposal, but having a replay option would have been more satisfying for all parties involved if that had been the case. So I can only speak from direct personal experience.
sorry if this was already mentioned in the previous pages*
Quick fix for Beach Blitz was making the G12 violation a RED CARD in elims.
And wouldn’t you know, we had to use it.
QF4-1: https://youtu.be/HMqI0clmUKU?t=2m12s
Blue alliance had immobilized robot in one path, second playing blocking defense against red robot. Adds issue of an immobilized robot into the equation, but clearly a blockade for over 20s at end of match.
It is worth noting that I have never been in this situation.
That being said, when it comes down to it, any determinative match is just a match. The consequence of that match may be different but the match itself isn’t. If you look at a playoff* match independently without considering which match in a given series it is, you shouldn’t be able to see where robots committed the same offense only to be punished differently**. A replay gives the losing alliance a noticeable advantage. If the ____ alliance wins the first match in a series, and then receives a yellow card in the 2nd match, while still winning that match, a replay would basically give the losing alliance a chance to improve their play or change their strategy. Yellow cards are meant to be a warning, and not to impact the outcome of a particular match.
- I specify playoff because the GDC has already determined that certain rules are different between playoff and qualification matches
** excluding T03
Ah, but as I’ve pointed out, due to differences in end-state conditions, the “last” match IS different from all other matches in the competition. That difference in the end-state creates an opportunity for a strategic action (taking a yellow card with no subsequent consequence) that is not available in any other match. That difference requires a difference in the rules. It may not be exactly the same outcome as for other matches, but it brings it closer.
Moving this to a red cards requires another rule change though due to the now draconian penalty–a countdown warning for an alliance to avoid inadvertently creating a blockade and being instantly DQd.
Wouldn’t a correct judgement be better than an incorrect non-judgement? You’ve cited two places where high profile non-judgement calls provided a worse overall experience. As that can be difficult to codify, sometimes it makes sense to allow for those judgements.
We’d agree on this point. But, this is also a general statement. As you’ve pointed out, we’re not discussing the general. We’re focusing on a single corner case. Here, we either believe the GDC intentionally allows for the strategy of blockading to ensure a win or we believe it was unintentional.
If we believe it’s intentional, there’s no need for a rule change.
If we believe it isn’t intentional, worrying about the idea of a yellow card not being meant to determine the outcome of a match isn’t really relevant to the conversation of this corner case. We’d agree they didn’t intend to create this loophole so we’d have to agree the “punishment” isn’t something they deemed correct. This can be addressed in a number of ways to include the one you’re suggesting.
Let’s ignore CC. Instead, let’s take a look at C01.
Egregious or exceptional violations. In addition to rule violations explicitly listed in this manual and witnessed by a REFEREE, the Head REFEREE may assign a YELLOW or RED CARD for egregious ROBOT actions or Team member behavior at the event. This includes violations of the event rules found on the FIRST® Robotics Competition Event Experience web page. Please see Section 10.7 YELLOW and RED CARDS for additional detail.
While I don’t believe this is the rule the refs at that event were citing, it applies. I think we’d both agree that something we’ve both discussed as a corner case is exceptional. In the case a team is specifically using a strategy aimed at breaking the game to ensure victory in a match where they wouldn’t see any future penalties, that CAN meet the definition used here. I suspect it’d take a single instance of this being called for clarification to happen and to have it called uniformly beyond that event. There is a rule to provide for the upgrade to a red card here.
It’s simple. Yet, it’s also not right. A match shouldn’t be replayed because a team member walked onto a purple field. If that happened and the result changed, that would be a far worse outcome than what we see now.
The correct incentive here is promoting “cooperatition” and a positive competitive environment. I think we’d disagree with the idea of incentive here. Incentive brings an inherently positive meaning. Rather, the rule provides disincentive for the behavior. It discourages the behavior rather than encouraging the neutral. Without the rule, there’s still the threat of C01. There’s plenty of incentive as the spirit of FIRST doesn’t go on hold for Finals 2. There just isn’t the disincentive penalizing going against the spirit of friendly competition.
No, we’re not. We both agree this isn’t something that should be allowed to determine the outcome of an event. We both share that same thought. We’re in a disagreement about how to address that. Looking at how to handle it is not a discussion of common sense. It’s looking for something that closes this loophole without creating something worse. I believe the black and white version you’re using is too far reaching and has potentially detrimental side effects. You believe leaving it up to interpretation is potentially detrimental. We don’t disagree on common sense. We disagree on which of these two is more detrimental.
This is the core of our disagreement. I don’t think that you can’t count on changing future behavior to get a correct judgement. Further, I don’t think we can count on a referee being able to correctly judge the significance of a yellow card on the outcome of the match. So we are left with the non-judgement being preferable, and a replay is the preferred outcome. For this reason, I don’t think the answer is to change the blockading call into a C01 call in the last match is the answer.
It also means that the blockading call will have different consequences for the two teams playing in that match–a disqualification for the winning alliance, and just a yellow card for the losing side. You can’t have inequitable outcomes in the rules based solely on the unknowable final outcome of the match. In the second match, it gives the team that lost in the first match a strategic advantage to be able to blockade in the 2nd match, while the team that won in the 1st match would have to be very cautious to avoid a chance of blockading. Again, using a replay instead avoids this inequitable stance to the rule.
As for whether yellow cards are dispensed for non-play fouls in the playoffs, that’s an empirical question that I’ve suggested a couple of times to be researched. I think that they are very small % of the cases, but that might not be true as its only my anecdotal observation.
Perhaps some of the yellow cards need to be upgraded to red cards, but the blockading rule needs a countdown so it doesn’t become an inadvertent instant knockout call.
Yellow cards aren’t available in any of FIRST’s published data to my knowledge, otherwise I’d look into it. Probably good since I’ve got enough on my plate as is with schedule strengths.
The authority has spoken… 