FrankAnswersFridays: October 25, 2013: Safety at Championships

FIRST General Forum
#21

I was not at Championships this past year due to not being able to get off work so I am unsure of what it was like compared to 2012 when as a volunteer I was left with a sour taste in my mouth due to ungracious behaviors I witnessed and a lack of coordination for getting teams into their seats for Einstein. I am just playing the devils advocate here for the sake of another view, particularly the view someone planning would have to consider when designing the plan.

By adding a scouting section how would it be enforced that only those who are queued for matches(if there are 6 scouters allowed per team, that 36 potential scouters per match) are in the section? (I am using teams that are queued for matches as a limiting factor for the amount of space needed to be roped off for the scouting section, if anyone else has any other ways to limit it that would be great to hear. Without limits there would be a need to rope off 600 seats per division just for scoting) And how many additional volunteers would be needed to run and manage this new section on each field? If it gets queued like getting on the field that means at least 2 volunteers per section.

I know this point has been beat to death when it comes to events but every year the manual states seats are not to be saved. If they were to go to randomly assigned slots of seats, how would this be enforced? Would it be gracious professionalism similar to what is supposed to be in place to prevent the saving of seats? From a volunteer side of it how will the seating arrangements be determined for each day? Will it be announced the day prior or have the entire weekend planned as soon as divisions are out? How could those running the event handle possible issues between teams over the seats? Would there be a specific desk that you could go lodge a complaint and they would send a volunteer to investigate? How many more volunteers would this require to be effective?

#22

Why would only teams queued for matches be allowed to scout?

#23

I honestly don’t know what I was thinking when I said that. I am assuming I was using that as a way to limit who was in the scouts only area. If it’s not limited and there is space for all teams to send their 6 scouts this would require quite a large area to be blocked off. 6 scouts per team and 100 teams per division would require 600 seats per division be roped off. If 600 seats is not feasible for be roped off in each section how could teams rotate in and out of the area? In my eyes roping off a section for about 108(6 students x 3 teams per alliance x 2 alliances=108 scouters) would be more feasible and easier to manage.

#24

I’m not against making plans for designated scouting sections, provided there’s a way to come up with a simple, effective, accommodating solution that doesn’t take a huge amount of effort. I don’t think the addition of a scouting section will fix the stampede problem, though. Teams want to sit together, there is limited seating, and not all of it is very good. Therefore, people are going to rush to try and “grab” blocks of seats for their team to sit in clusters.

This isn’t an easy problem to solve at all, but it’s not something that can go unaddressed either. Anything that involves adding staff, seating designations, etc. is going to be a hard sell as it’s a lot of extra work and additional resources for a problem that exists for about 15-20 minutes a day.

I like the idea of four lines and letting in a set number of people / teams in at a time in waves. requires more people just for 20 minutes and just at the door. Letting people into the dome in waves means the quest for seating will be civil and fair without having to reserve sections for teams or something weird like that. The main challenge i see is how one handles a situation where one team member shows up at 4 AM to hold a spot in line and the rest of the team shows up at 7…

#25

They really should start looking into using more areas to let teams in! You have swarms of pit crew members rushing in to either start working on their robots or head to practice combined with swarms of team members heading to the stands to save seats.

It would be great if FIRST used rope on the sidewalks in front of several entrances around the dome to create lines with entrances labelled (2+ for dome and 1+ for the pits). Creating an orderly line of entrants along with volunteers/security at the doors to slow down the flow of bodies going through doors can help.

I am not a fan of a designated scouting section. If divisions have 100+ teams in them and your scouting system requires 6-8 individuals to scout, not to mention room for equipment you will need a minimum of 600-800 seats sectioned off although one could argue most of the stands are just scouts. Now most teams don’t scout and some don’t need that much room, but with the district model increasing the competitiveness of regions the competitiveness of the divisions will increase as will scouting.

I am open to the idea of assigned seating but unless a group steps forward to handle the logistics of handing out enough assigned seats but not too many FIRST most likely does not have the man power to start assigning daily seats. Also if every team asks for 3-5 too many seats (x 400 teams= 1200-2000 extra seats) then we really won’t have enough room for teams to watch Einstein.

As Chris said, anything that involves significant additional manpower is a hard sell to FIRST who is a small volunteer organization running a massive program!

With that being said FIRST really needs to step back and examine where they want to go and how to get there keeping safety in mind. If we want to be the superbowl of smarts and grow the championship to that level its going to to take a lot of work. The superbowl draws a massive volunteer base from its host city, security is very high not only to ensure safety from threats but also safety in masses, etc. I really hope FIRST takes this seriously as I have felt very unsafe during moments of mass movement at the FIRST championship in 2011 and 2013. The mass exodus during doors open and the end of the day or the finale is flat out going to seriously hurt someone one day or another!

#26

I like the idea of four lines and waves as well.

One way to solve this problem is to hand out one ticket per person as people arrive. You wouldn’t need to start handing out tickets until 5 AM as the cutting doesn’t happen 'til later. Then let people in by the order of tickets. This would also slow people down as they go through the door, as their ticket would have to be checked. Plus it would make it easy to do waves, “tickets 2014-0000 thru 2014-0100.” Granted it would take some man power in the mornings but it would be fairly cheap, a roll of tickets is only $20 or so.

Another option would be to do something like the Portland Timbers do. They have a lottery system that gives a certain percentage of people special tickets. With those tickets they are let in an hour before everyone else. This takes a lot of the rush for good seats away as the best seats are already taken.

#27

I would like to see the lower section divide into 3 sections using the isles as deviders. Each section would be assign to different match’s in a rotation. You would have the match before to get into the seats and the match after yours to get out of the seats so the next assigned match’s teams could get into watch. This would allow smaller teams that do not have the people that spend the day keeping other people from watching there own match’s to see their match’s from good seats. You could come watch your match and then go to the tech exhibits or other things the event offers. It would also cut the need for some of the stampede.

#28

I think the fairest system, and the one requiring the least amount of work to implement, is the one that many teams (including my own) try to follow now – you show up early in the morning with as many people as seats you want to claim, and stand in line.

Where this fails right now is that there is often not a clear indication of where the line starts (i.e. which door(s) will be opening) and no effort to enforce that teams respect the line (other than teams’ GP, which sadly often goes missing at this point in the competition). This is easily and inexpensively solved with signage and crowd control barriers.

Edit: Having one such line for each division, at its own set of doors at the four corners of the dome, would also go a long way towards decreasing the safety hazard of people pushing or running in different directions after they get in.

#29

Frank,
Thanks for watching CD as an information source. Those of us out here really do appreciate that, more than we’ve already said.

On the point of seating, mad rushes, saving seats and safety: I strongly suggest you consider reserved seating and a lottery system for scouts for each division. The seats all have numbers, let’s use that. I agree with Eric’s suggestion of 7 tickets per team (we use 7 scouts for every match).

**Each team will get 7 assigned seats in the ‘scouting’ section, which are the lower concourse sections that have good visibility of the entire field. Which exact seats a team gets is random, but your team is in a group, and these are the same seats for all of CMP. The rest of the team sits elsewhere. **

Teams that don’t use 7 scouts can use their 7 seats for whatever they wish, except that no items that can block one’s view are allowed (large signs, etc.), and standing during a match is prohibited - after all, we’re scouting here…

Some basic research: Foe example, sections 105, 107 and 109 of the Jones Dome are in a corner with good visibility of a division field. Each has about 21 rows, and if each row has an average of 14 seats, it means these sections can accommodate 123 teams - more than enough. If there are more seats per row (and I think there are) then either teams get more assigned seats (8 or 9 or 10, whatever) OR the last few rows are not assigned.

Power is a perennial issue, 1676 brings its own power as needed. If no AC outlets are available, we use battery and an AC inverter to run the wired router, server and printer used by the scouting team.

As for the rest of the mad dash, real crowd control through carefully defined entry bottlenecks would be fine.

#30

Also giving the pit an obviously separate issue would be nice.

#31

I agree with everyone who mentioned crowd control barriers. If you have a line that zig zags and is cordoned off, it will preventi people from pushing through the doors because they will be funneled into the line. No one will be able to cut in either because barriers would prevent it. It would go a long way towards relieving a lot of the problem. I also cannot stress enough the fact that people just don’t listen. I was verbally abused two years ago by a woman when my team and I “stole” empty seats. She accused me of not understanding the spirit of FIRST despite clearly not ever reading the rules herself. You can’t prevent stupidity nor ignorance, but what I would suggest is that you can prevent teams that are clearly saving seats, by having volunteers explain the rules to them when they see a team using signs and tape to block sections off.
Also more doors should be open. We are filling the lower portion of the stadium to capacity. They size the arena and the doors to handle it, but when you close doors, you are not using the building as designed and are most definitely asking for a problem. Even if you only open the doors during the first hour, it would go a long way to making the event safer.

#32

Most volunteers and FIRST staff do not arrive at the dome until about 7am. My mom would arrive early each day to get some things done early and usually would get there before anyone else and sometimes before the doors were even unlocked for volunteers.

#33

As one of the Boston RPC members that was -always- on door duty, thanks for the compliment. Didn’t always go as planned, but we tried very hard to make an orderly system. This included REPEATED reminders via megaphone to the lobby-crowd that running/pushing etc would not be tolerated. (This was doubly important, as a flight of stairs separated the lobby from the mezzanine area and we didn’t want people to trip or get hurt/trampled by running kids.)

Here’s how we did it:
Venue staff at the doors, checking bags. Venue staff at each turnstile- these were located at the bottom of the stairs. Crowd control volunteers at the middle landing of the stairs, and at the top of the stairs. (Since the field wouldn’t be running matches for some time, Queueing and Field Reset volunteers worked well for this purpose. It wasn’t just a 'Hey you, slow down!" - these people were standing in a row - human turnstiles, if you will. A visual reminder that pushing and running just wasn’t going to happen.

For the Championship, however, this wouldn’t work. Some teams in the past have CLEARLY demonstrated that they don’t value human beings that aren’t on their team, and I’ve heard horror stories of pushing, hitting, running, yelling, fighting – you name it. It’s disgusting - that’s not the FIRST community I know. I get that the Championship seating is competitive, but there’s no reason for such a lack of respect for others.

I really like the idea of lines outside for each division. Perhaps those lines are near a door that’s close to the corner of the arena where your division is located? The issue of pushing and shoving to get in the door would be solved with lines, BUT as soon as they got to the hallway, we’d have the same problem - running, pushing – all the bad stuff. If they were close enough to their division, maybe volunteers or arena staff could be assigned to those areas to ensure safety.

I’m thinking back to the Black Eyed Peas Concert, and how well I remember that seating process being handled. (I can’t for the life of me recall if it was the same for teams, but I was in the middle section of the arena surrounded by teams, so I’m assuming it was similar. If not, PLEASE correct me.) There was an insane level of volunteer presence, as well as venue/event/FIRST staff, just to make sure everyone got to their section safely. Why not bring that level out again in the mornings? I know that it’s a lot to ask, but it’s better than having kids getting injured over seats.

And for the love of robots, don’t count down to doors-open. Learned that the hard way in Boston one year. It’s all bad. Kids get riled, and the ‘oh right, they told me not to run’ memory gets erased by ‘OMG OMG LET’S GO.’

Teams get there at 5. Which means at least some level of staff presence needs to be there at 5. Arena staff is there (from what I understand, I’m not on a team that lines up that early), and with clear instructions should be able to handle a division-line-up system. Maybe volunteers who are early-birds could help handle it, and then get a pass to go back to their hotel for a nap in the afternoon? I know I’d need it. :slight_smile:

#34

I’m 100% in agreement with Pat here. If lineups were clearly marked and enforced each morning, there would be absolutely no issues. There’s no need to implement a complicated solution for what is a relatively simple problem to solve.

#35

Lots of good discussion and constructive idea being presented here.

As someone who walked it many times the last two years there really does need
to be an entrance on the other side for the pits. We often try to do a picnic lunch and it really slows things down that everyone basically has to walk from one side and around the dome to the other side.

Different entrances for each division would also make things more orderly.

I am not sure if designated scouter seats will work but I think it is an idea worth trying. As we all know, the first attempt will not likely be right but it would be a place to start.

In the end, GP is the big requirement. Sometimes I believe it is not deliberate non-GP behavior but the lack of a framework that encourages GP. The current mass rush just does not work. Take ideas from concert venues and amusement parks they have been solving this problem for years.

Two stages, in the door and bag/box checks, followed by well defined queuing areas. Multiple entrances for different sections.

The idea of tickets for team seating has problems unless we tie it to some other purchased element. Maybe base it on hotel rooms purchased (4 tickets for each hotel room purchased) since Steel Meetings is given a monopoly on the hotel rooms.

#36

I like Pat and Karthik’s thoughts on this matter; a simple and easy to implement solution to the problem. Not everything would be perfect (teams would still run once past the doors unless the “line” continued inside) but it would be far better than what’s going on now.

I do wish to add that as much as teams should be GP, as much as we want to instill those values, teams are going to run in the mornings if they have a good reason to. We can’t go “teams need to be more GP” and then do nothing about the problem. It doesn’t remove the incentive to sprint, push, and shove.

Similarly, more volunteers telling students not to run isn’t going to make them stop running. The benefits of running ahead (good seats for the day) are far higher than the costs (someone might ask you to stop running). I’d never endorse the behavior of these students, but I understand why it happens. Tired, stressed students whom have been awake for 3 hours are being rushed / cut by people that showed up 20 minutes prior to doors. These students felt they worked hard for the right to sit first and hate to see it taken from them by other people running ahead, so they have in their mind no choice but to do the same.

Hence why an ideal solution to get people to stop running is to ensure an orderly line that can proceed in that order all the way to the entrance to the stands. Anything short of that creates an opportunity for students to run / push / shove / cut.

#37

Adding on to all of this, you would have to, in advance of the competition, mark on a map a specific set of doors that open early and have these 4 separate lines that we talked about. Second, you need to have a few people there early in the morning (floaters, maybe even queuers?) to control the entry. I think you open these special doors for field access only 10 minutes before each other door, and have each division go at one time and escorted to the entrance of that division. The free for all is bound to happen eventually, but trying to mitigate the initial rush would go a long way in establishing a precedent of fair and sensible seating.

Also since a lot of people who are serial seat savers (ie non-mentoring parents) are not likely to ever read the admin manual, could FIRST put a couple more coins into signage that quotes the rule around each seating area? I know FIRST likes to dump a lot of cash on signage for the whole event, what’s a few more banners around each division to maybe cut down on the issue just bit more?

#38

Lotteries, etc… are silly and resource intensive.

We just need a better system to handle the first come first serve. Also, reducing the “sprint distance” would help.

In 2011, the line for pit was allowed to go inside, and right up to the pit doors. Thus, when the doors were opened there was no incentive to sprint… you were already there. 2012 and 2013 had a dangerous 500’ sprint.

I’d be nice (but I’m less familiar with the dome layout) to do the same thing for the 4 divisions. Form a line right at the entrance to the seats themselves, so that minimal sprinting could even happen. This also makes what is currently one massive line, 5 smaller lines.

#39

Jim,
I wonder if you had a run-in with the same woman who did that to me and 2 of my students when we found some empty seats right before opening ceremonies in 2011. Another mentor from her team did come stop her because she was making a scene yelling at the several groups who sat in the seats, and her entire team ended up using about 2/5 of the “saved” seats.

More doors, please. Separate pit entrance, please. More humorous rhymes from the safety glasses attendant, please.

#40

I agree with most of this. However it doesn’t address the problem of a team sending a 1 or 2 people to save 30 seats or more.

While a lottery may be “resource intensive” it solves both issues. There’s no running, and everyone has a set amount of seats.

Also, to prevent teams from saying they have 50 people just to “be safe” it may be a good idea to have a system in place that the bigger the team is, the less likely they get seats up front.

I’m all for simple solutions but at the same time I don’t want to half solve the problem.