I hope the add a tape measure tool ::rtm::
I don’t mind this. I’d like to remind people of the “great 2012 bridge fiasco” where a huge number of teams showed up to their first event being unable to push down the bridge with their lowering mechanism. These were capable teams who had gone to kickoff fields and/or built their own wooden bridge from the team version and designed a solution for that not realizing that the actual field bridges required an order of magnitude more force (something like 10lbs vs 30lbs).
I’d really like to see FIRST commit to providing even more detailed and high quality field build videos and provide better team version drawings. I think both those things are a 1000x more useful than kickoff fields.
AFAIK, our local kickoff never had a wooden field. Even though kickoff is about a 20 minute drive away, we just send a mentor or two to get the KoP.
New WAI?
I don’t think there’s ever been a kickoff field in Canada. You could always host a kickoff Kitbot build for new teams instead if you want to make a difference.
It’s been a long time; the last one I remember in Toronto (the only kickoff site I’ve attended) was 2007.
Presumably, yes. Games like VRChat have perfectly usable desktop modes for people to play in, and id assume a non-VR solution will exist.
I like this decision. The fields never existed at our kickoffs, so i have no point of reference there to its usefulness, but the immersion VR can give, while maybe not as nice as fieldside props to touch and interact with, helps with getting everyone onto a similar playing field in terms of first impressions with the field.
In terms of cost, esp with AR its not hard to just whip out your phone and interact. Ive managed to get the Power Up field onto Snapchat of all things, and while it wasnt perfect, (a lot of detail within the model had to be scrapped to fit under the 5mb limit) the fact that i could plop this down and mess with it should show that its not to hard to get a good virtual feel of the field.
Rock I’m under must have hit me on the head. Obviously 2015 had memorable game elements.
David
Maybe I’m being a pessimist but y’all are making it sound like FIRST is saying that this will happen this year. The blog indicates
“we are inviting sponsors to provide a greater range of resources; from simple ‘google cardboard’-like experiences that can be used on common smart phones to a full-on virtual experience that use high end headsets.”
This means that FIRST is advertising something they don’t have and are maybe unfairly putting the pressure on their sponsors to now produce it. It’ll probably be an order of magnitude or two less people doing the VR development than field builders, but I find the game leak aspect of the reasoning a little weak.
All that said I don’t really see much wrong with the intent of this change. The team versions don’t serve much purpose at kickoff other than helping with size/relations, which can be met with other quicker and easier means. Field tour videos are I think much more useful, but could still be further improved if FIRST included more videos to understand things like line of sight. I feel like generally the photo/video dump that people do from NH with the real field elements are probably more beneficial, so trying to more officially get that out to more teams would be time well spent.
Like many others have said I would much prefer that volunteer time of the field builders to be instead spent on improving the team drawings. A BOM of what’s needed, a layout of how to effeciently cut 4x8 sheets of plywood and 2x4s, or how to modify team drawings to make them more competition like (for instance we added weights to our 2012 bridge)
My first thought was they are going to put something VR in the KOP so every team gets it. Google cardboard would be cheap. Put 5 of them in each kit and everybody has fun on kickoff.
Our kick off has always had wood fields. I like it for size etc. I also like it because i can get a good idea of how much lumber I will need to buy. Many things can be simplified after you see it. This year we didn’t build a switch just put 3 pieces of plywood together with hinges so it would fold up as needed. We had this figured out before we got home from kick off. I don’t think it will be a big deal either way. More real field videos would be great.
This guy reads.
In BC the last two years we’ve had ALL the wooden elements at the kickoff.
Canada > Ontario these days, eh?
That said, the real problem with field build (from a builder’s perspective) is that the drawings are created by engineers and designers who really have NO idea about how to build with wood. The drawings all have to be re-drawn to create cutting diagrams before purchasing the wood.
I’m disappointed to hear that there have been leaks resulting from the field build program… I actually find it kind of surprising. We’ve kept our field build team down to two or three people not associated with teams, but I suspect not every kickoff has that option. Personally, I’ll take the extra two days of Christmas holidays (one to re-do the drawings, one to do the stocking and cutting) and the $700 trimming of the kickoff budget as fair compensation.
And I do like the idea that sponsors will be getting involved to help develop a more detailed virtual field experience. That has some very cool potential.
Jason
Yeah, that’s sort of what I was thinking too - but then I thought a little bit more about it, and perhaps the reference to sponsors was folks sponsoring more high end VR headsets at kickoffs. Those they certainly don’t currently have, and would require a massive amount of money for kickoffs to obtain. But if some nice sponsor just drop-shipped a bunch with the kickoff kits…
(maybe I’m dreaming)
My apologies. I asked around a bit but I guess I didn’t ask around enough. It’s very cool that you were able to put that together.
That said, the real problem with field build (from a builder’s perspective) is that the drawings are created by engineers and designers who really have NO idea about how to build with wood. The drawings all have to be re-drawn to create cutting diagrams before purchasing the wood.
I’m starting to beat a deadhorse but please, please FIRST put some additional effort into making really effective team drawings. A BOM and a cut chart would be amazing. Building field elements is such a great way to get new people involved in FIRST who may (wrongly) believe that their woodworking/construction skill set isn’t useful to a robotics team, creating an excellent pathway for them to become more involved in the future. I’d wage to say that most teams already have their monetary and mentorship resources spread so thin that it’s often weeks before they complete the elements if they do at all. Field elements can make or break a season for a team and are crucial to teaching the proper engineering and design process. We shouldn’t need an engineer to reinterpret the team drawings at kickoff.
Hell, If FIRST wanted to confidentially send me the team drawings a couple days in advance I’d be happy to volunteer my time improving the field drawings and writing some supporting resources for kickoff. I’m sure there are others out there with more skills than I have that would volunteer to do the same.
This is an interesting change from HQ, but the leak issue really rings hollow here. Last year’s big leak was not from the team drawings, and a plausible explanation lies in the methods used to secure some of the files made public in advance. (No, unless you’re from HQ don’t ask for details, I’m not giving.)
The reality is, I know of only two people here in Upstate NY who I know were on the crew that built the field elements last year. We simply don’t talk, ask, or advertise who, how, or when they get built.
One last point - when people talk about advantages for teams because of the out-of-build-season time spent building field elements, our field elements go to the community practice field that all local teams get access to. No one team gets to horde the element and play/practice with it.
Before the BoM and cut chart, how about having the team versions properly represent the critical dimensions and functions?
Edit/Amplification: This year, there were no rollers in the team version. We came up with a workaround (when the cube tilts backward it’s the HP’s problem), but not really satisfactory. The team scale seemed less sensitive than the actual version; I haven’t tried to run to ground whether this was due to a different difference in the CoG vs the pivot point, or a different amount of friction. Who cares about the internals of the switch unless you’re doing a scrimmage? The dimensions of the exchange (width in particular) seemed different between our practice exchange and the real one, with the real one being wider. Overall rating: 1.0/4.
Last year, the DAVIT mockup was completely useless, neither simulating the rope mount nor the TOUCHPAD. The PEG mockup was completely useless for teams who decided to let the pilots lift the gear rather than do a hang-and-go. The airship mockup was completely MISSING! Even the one developed by the FRC community needed significant modification (or more properly re-invention) by us so that we could get it through a 36" doorway in a reasonably small number of pieces. Overall rating: -0.5/4.
Combined rating the past two years: 0.5/8.
Have there ever even been widespread game leaks from the field builders? The only big things I can think of were the CAD leaks this year and last year and the time AndyMark accidentally put up a vague description of the can in 2015. Of course, part of the reason things don’t really get around is because the major FRC communities stop that information from being spread as quickly as they possibly can.
Edit: I did not look at any of the leaks I mentioned, but I knew of their existence.
3946 has never benefited from a game leak. AFAIK, the only FRC leak any of us has ever seen was that I saw the picture of the Red Line motor a day or two before it went public, and I didn’t share.
How i understood the process took was that a few weeks before kickoff builders received the materials list. Then a week or so later the cut list was released. Finally a few days before the assembly drawings.
Last year was our first kick off we attended with these game elements. This was one of the primary reasons to transfer to this kick off. Other than having the assembly done out the gate as a team I was grateful we got to interact with them and make decisions on what we will or will not make ourselves.
There will be a imbalance of experience between teams that have full power vr systems over teams with cardboard goggles. I see in our KOP the possibility of including Google cardboard.
Yes. I think some of these “leaks from field builders” had more comprehensive game detail than you would ever get from field drawings though.
As a team that has always attended a kickoff with field elements, I’m not really sure how this will affect us. Probably not greatly. Though I have to admit one of the very reasons we attend these events is to be able to see and visualize the elements. With the change, we might think about just sending an envoy to the event to pick up the kit. I would hate to see attendance drop at these events because teams might feel this way. (Don’t really know what our team will do, just giving an example.)
I’m also a BIG fan of asking sponsors to provide VR in the kits. Google might be more than willing to provide their “Cardboard” for each of the teams in the hopes that many will find it useful and decide to buy a few more (or even the more expensive ones) for their teams to use. At least that way the budget challenged teams will have the same ability to access this valuable resource that has been provided.
And, yes, I’m sure some teams do NOT have a smart phone among their members. There so many teams that are just struggling to pay for the fees to enter an event, not to mention travel, parts, food, and all the other little things that go into a team. $15 doesn’t seem like a lot for most of us, but that’s about 2 hrs of work for someone that might not be making enough to pay for the normal stuff with a 40, 50, or 60 hr work week already. Many of these teams only have 5 or 6 kids on them because they’re giving up their valuable after school time (or as my grandpa called it “work time” or “family pay” 
) in order to try and learn a skill to better their lives. It’s tough to ask those kids, or their parents, for even a penny more, and sponsor money needs to go towards the other stuff.
I admit most of these disadvantaged teams might not go to these events anyway, that’s why I think this change could be a real advantage to this program…as long as they have a way to access the resource.
I don’t think my team will have any issues with the change. We come from a middle class suburb and we probably wouldn’t have a problem acquiring VR devices. (I personally have a high end one actually) However, it troubles me because I think that as technology gets more advanced (and expensive), we need to make a conscious effort to make sure that we don’t leave anyone behind. Or we begin to lose this great vision that FIRST is all about. As the foundation of this program, I think HQ needs to be sure to help provide solutions to teams that may not be able to advance with the same ease as many of us can.
I understand that a $15 Cardboard VR device given to 3660+ teams will add up, but if a sponsor could contribute, or worst case teams could “apply” for one, we could at least continue to ensure all teams will be able to use the resource.
Ok, I’ve rambled enough I guess. :rolleyes: Guess I’ll hand the soap box to someone else now.
P.S. I have every confidence that if HQ doesn’t provide, there will be teams out there that will step up. It’s one of the reasons I love this program. So to those teams that spend their time and treasure helping everyone to succeed (that’s like, almost EVERY team, right?) THANK YOU!