[FRC Blog] Week One Event Issues

[devyntk]

Posted on the FRC Blog, 3/6/2017: Week One Event Issues | FIRST

Week One Event Issues
Written by Frank Merrick.

I apologize for the challenges we had at our events this weekend. While most folks, from the preliminary results of our post-event surveys anyway, still had a great experience, many events were finding themselves running late or delivering fewer qualification matches to our teams than they had hoped.

While we never guarantee a minimum number of matches per team, and the value you receive for your registration fee certainly includes elements unrelated purely to match count, I can understand that District teams especially, had an expectation of getting 12 matches at their events, and in some cases we did not meet that expectation. As a rule of thumb, if an event feels (either before it starts or mid-event) that they need to truncate or otherwise significantly change the schedule, they give me a call to discuss the situation. We talk about the realities of what’s happening and our options - how late things are running, what the issues have been, options for starting early, running late, running through lunch, etc - and come to consensus on the best path forward. Reducing match counts is an option, and is always a last resort, but that’s sometimes that we’re left with, as we attempt to balance all the many competing concerns involved.

The field this year is interesting and includes several ‘show’ elements designed to make it fun, but it’s also very complex to assemble, and literally has ‘lots of moving parts’ (some put in place to help get us get to ‘real’ real-time scoring) that need regular attention. Also, game design went later than anticipated, which led to less time for sourcing, shipping, and support documentation. We also ran into other issues that are more challenging to control, such as venue Wi-Fi interference and the natural delays with international shipping. All of this, along with the number of elements that need to be reset between matches, has contributed to the delays we’re seeing.

Some of these elements are easier for FIRST HQ to control, and some are harder, but we are working on ways to make things better long-term. We are currently developing plans to accelerate the game design process, and are reviewing our resource requirements to make sure that we have the people and support we need to produce the kind of product that works for everyone - teams, volunteers, and the larger community.

Short-term, we continue to develop on-the-fly improvements when we spot issues. Examples include the recent change to peg points less likely to break announced here, and the rule change to minimize a nuisance penalty we were seeing here. Also, as the weeks roll by, we expect the fields to be assembled, and reset, faster as issues with individual fields are solved and field staff become more experienced.

I want to thank the teams for their patience, and to thank all our incredible volunteers for the many hours they spend making FIRST what it is! I’m constantly amazed by the lengths to which our volunteers will go to solve problems and make FIRST happen. Of course, the long-term goal is to not present our volunteers with so many challenges in the first place!

We are working to make things better, in both the short- and long- term, and I can’t wait to see what the teams have in store for us next!

Frank

[MooreteP]

Okay.
I appreciate this “Frank” response.

On Friday at CTWAT, I could sense the fatigue and wondering how many volunteers and teams were ready to call it quits after an exhausting build season, and then, having to deal with an incomplete and malfunctioning competition field.

Fortunately, we are so many engineers that are so good at problem-solving.

I like that Frank is “fessing up” to the causes of this debacle.
I think that we will soldier on and realize the promise of this game design.

FIRST is fractal. The field was like a week one Robot.
Functional, but requires iteration.

After witnessing SteamWorks in person, and not caring for the transition to themes, I can vouch that I think we got a good one here.

[Tom_Line]

Frank, just in case you don’t read ALL the threads on Chief Delphi, I’m going to cross my fingers you stumble across this one. There’s been a lot of reports that sharp edges on the davit are cutting climber ropes and straps. Any chance of putting a plastic edge or bending a piece of aluminum around it?

[Bochek]

@Tom Line

Frank, just in case you don’t read ALL the threads on Chief Delphi, I’m going to cross my fingers you stumble across this one. There’s been a lot of reports that sharp edges on the davit are cutting climber ropes and straps. Any chance of putting a plastic edge or bending a piece of aluminum around it?

+1

[JR0405]

@Tom Line

Frank, just in case you don’t read ALL the threads on Chief Delphi, I’m going to cross my fingers you stumble across this one. There’s been a lot of reports that sharp edges on the davit are cutting climber ropes and straps. Any chance of putting a plastic edge or bending a piece of aluminum around it?

Is there a quick fix teams could do to their ropes to protect them? Even something that can be replaced(yes would require reinspection but better then a rope failing or needing to be replaced)?

[EricH]

@JR0405

Is there a quick fix teams could do to their ropes to protect them? Even something that can be replaced(yes would require reinspection but better then a rope failing or needing to be replaced)?

Look into sling protectors. https://www.mcmaster.com/#slings/=16n67hv (lower right, marked “sling protectors”)

(Anybody thinking that that particular link’s items are legal, they are NOT. They are meant to provide an IDEA. Savvy?)

I don’t think it would be too difficult for some teams to arrange for some creative sewing of woven fabric such that it protects the rest of the rope… Just a thought…

[piersklein]

@Tom Line

Frank, just in case you don’t read ALL the threads on Chief Delphi, I’m going to cross my fingers you stumble across this one. There’s been a lot of reports that sharp edges on the davit are cutting climber ropes and straps. Any chance of putting a plastic edge or bending a piece of aluminum around it?

I would be careful blaming the davit for these failures. At GSD, none of the ropes failed within 2 inches of the davit.

That being said, attaching a piece of gaffer’s tape to the davit would be enough to dull the edge and should be considered by the field supervisor

[Jon_K]

@piersklein

I would be careful blaming the davit for these failures. At GSD, none of the ropes failed within 2 inches of the davit.

That being said, attaching a piece of gaffer’s tape to the davit would be enough to dull the edge and should be considered by the field supervisor

I would go further to state that it is more likely teams over driving their robots. Often at the Tippe event we were seeing rope failures from robots who would dead stop on the davit or touchpad, but kept running their climber, and subsequently the rope failed under the additional loading. The rope itself never touched the davit in a manner to cause failures due to the davit.

That or often times the knots on the ropes would slip the retaining features and cause the robots to fall.

[Thayer_McCollum]

I think some of this also comes from the ropes that teams are using. Don’t get me wrong, strap and velcro was an incredible solution to the problem. But I think that straps will get cut on the davit a lot easier than a traditional rope would.

I’m not suggesting that my 5/8" double-braided nylon with a breaking strength of 3 tons isn’t excessive, it definitely is, but it’ll be a lot harder to cut with a sharp corner on a davit.

[Nuttyman54]

@Thayer McCollum

I think some of this also comes from the ropes that teams are using. Don’t get me wrong, strap and velcro was an incredible solution to the problem. But I think that straps will get cut on the davit a lot easier than a traditional rope would.

I’m not suggesting that my 5/8" double-braided nylon with a breaking strength of 3 tons isn’t excessive, it definitely is, but it’ll be a lot harder to cut with a sharp corner on a davit.

Not all nylon strap is equal and not all high pound test line is equal either. Thinner ropes will wear through more quickly from chafing and see a significantly higher reduction in strength more quickly. A small nick on a thin paracord line may be enough too make it so that a little bit of excessive driving against the touchpad propogates the nick to a tear to a complete failure.

I’ve noticed many teams are using ratchet strap, which also tends to be a fair bit thinner than thick industrial nylon webbing due to the fact that it’s designed to coil as tightly as possible. From a strength standpoint it will be plenty sufficient but some cheaper brands are pretty thin and can just open up like a zipper if they get a small nick or fretting. Thicker webbing like McMaster P/N 3510T82 or similar will be more wear resistant.

[Billfred]

@Nuttyman54

I’ve noticed many teams are using ratchet strap, which also tends to be a fair bit thinner than thick industrial nylon webbing due to the fact that it’s designed to coil as tightly as possible. From a strength standpoint it will be plenty sufficient but some cheaper brands are pretty thin and can just open up like a zipper if they get a small nick or fretting. Thicker webbing like McMaster P/N 3510T82 or similar will be more wear resistant.

We ran some Harbor Freight ratchet straps because they were cheap, the right color, and thin (because we’re concerned about more torque in this system). No problems through Tippecanoe, though one strap that got punctured by our climber hook was immediately removed from service and replaced with an identical strap. (This was also the same match a knot pulled through the davit and we took a tumble, so we would’ve retired it anyway for bad juju.)

[jaredhk]

@Tom Line

Frank, just in case you don’t read ALL the threads on Chief Delphi, I’m going to cross my fingers you stumble across this one. There’s been a lot of reports that sharp edges on the davit are cutting climber ropes and straps. Any chance of putting a plastic edge or bending a piece of aluminum around it?

First off, Frank has admitted that he checks CD regularly so hopefully he sees this. BUT, the most effective method to get a real response is to email [email protected].

[waialua359]

Our team uses a ratchet strap webbing with velcro.
It held up pretty good after an entire event. On the other hand, I saw a few that looked bad and watched those particular robots hang.
The main thing I noticed was that those robots come up swinging pretty hard vs. ours which is pretty much straight up with very little swaying.
Not making any conclusions other than this simple observation.

Ours is a square drum and one thing we did to minimize the swaying was getting rid of vecro on the entire drum other than the center portion. Robot comes up pretty balanced.

[Tom_Line]

@piersklein

I would be careful blaming the davit for these failures. At GSD, none of the ropes failed within 2 inches of the davit.

That being said, attaching a piece of gaffer’s tape to the davit would be enough to dull the edge and should be considered by the field supervisor

A number of well known teams (and mentors) have commented that some davit edges were quite sharp. That may not be true at all events - hopefully by next week it isn’t true at any of them.

[David_Lame]

I have one concern after participating in field takedown at Southfield. That field was taken down and re-packed by enthusiastic but untrained volunteers. We spent a lot of time looking at pictures and saying “Does this go in this box?”

I’m a bit concerned what’s going to happen tomorrow night when they start unpacking.

In Michigan, that will be somewhat offset by the fact that a lot of people working on the field will have already done it at a week one event, and there may even be people unpacking who were part of the packing. I’d just be a bit concerned about those trucks that are going to an event three states away from the last one.

Hopefully it won’t be an issue. I guess we’ll find out.

[KosmicKhaos]

Also, game design went later than anticipated

I thought Frank said in a blog awhile back that the GDC was actually ahead. Guess this is just proof that even FIRST can get behind schedule when they’re ahead.

As much as I appreciate this blog post I’m hoping for lots of good changes in the Team Update today. Too many things wrong with this game that need to be fixed for this week of events.

[sgeckler]

At the Tippe District, Team 4926 managed to slice through a rope at the 90deg turn near the Davit. The ensuing fall was not pretty. We changed to a tougher rope after that, but regardless of your rope/webbing type, I would carefully inspect every inch of it after every match.

Spring droop also remains something to watch out for. I can say that a spring that looks good at the beginning of a match, may turn into an unusable spring by the end. I was constantly evaluating spring condition DURING matches and providing direction accordingly.

I do want to thank all the Volunteers for working their tails off to complete that District Event in its entirety! They were inspiring.

[JuliaGreen]

@David Lame

I have one concern after participating in field takedown at Southfield. That field was taken down and re-packed by enthusiastic but untrained volunteers. We spent a lot of time looking at pictures and saying “Does this go in this box?”

I’m a bit concerned what’s going to happen tomorrow night when they start unpacking.

In Michigan, that will be somewhat offset by the fact that a lot of people working on the field will have already done it at a week one event, and there may even be people unpacking who were part of the packing. I’d just be a bit concerned about those trucks that are going to an event three states away from the last one.

Hopefully it won’t be an issue. I guess we’ll find out.

David -

No worries. There are at least 3 of us from Southfield who will be on the field crew at the next event assigned to that trailer. We know we are a special type of crazy to work back-to-back events and we know where we hid the good stuff.

Julia

[notmattlythgoe]

Would cutting the length of the pegs in half truly effect anyone’s design? Doing this would mean that most robots are not having to drive as far onto the peg to get the gear near the back. Meaning you should have fewer pegs that are bent.

[AdamHeard]

@notmattlythgoe

Would cutting the length of the pegs in half truly effect anyone’s design? Doing this would mean that most robots are not having to drive as far onto the peg to get the gear near the back. Meaning you should have fewer pegs that are bent.

We’ve found that even 1-2" shorter is a BIG difference and helps a good deal.