FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives

FIRST General Forum
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Posted on the FRC Blog, 11/22/13: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/FIRST-Choice-Adds-Additives

FIRST® Choice Adds Additives

**Blog Date: **Friday, November 22, 2013 - 17:41

It’s true. 3D printers will be available in *FIRST *Choice. See the information below from Kate and Collin, our Kit of Parts team:

Hopefully you’re all aware that *FIRST *Choice opens up for window shopping this Monday, 11/25! Our objective is to fortify the *FIRST *Choice inventory more and more every year so that it adds value to Teams in ways we never could have with the Kickoff Kit model of distribution alone.

This year, we’re very excited to announce that an impressive group of representatives from Oak Ridge National Laboratory, the Department of Energy’s Advanced Manufacturing Office, America Makes (formerly NAMII), MakerBot, TNFIRST, 3D Systems, and MakerGear have stepped up to get more than 400 3D printers available to teams via *FIRST *Choice. There will be 3D Printer kits as well as turn-key printers. You’ll have to wait for the window shopping to get further details about the makes, models, specs, exact inventory levels, etc.

The “street price” of these printers far exceeds the value of other items in *FIRST *Choice. For that reason, we’re going to treat the logistics of assigning them to Teams differently.

First, you should know that the credit value for the printers will be set at the total number of credits issued for both the first and second rounds of credit distribution, 150 credits on December 14th and 450 credits at Kickoff respectively. This means that if you get a printer, you forfeit anything else in *FIRST *Choice. Second, the determination of who gets a printer will not be a straight-up first-come-first-serve process. Here’s the plan…

  • December 14th, noon Eastern:
    *FIRST *Choice will open to take orders. If a team selects a 3D printer, they’ll be required to indicate their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choice selections for printers. All of their credits will be consumed and they will be put in the 3D Printer lottery.

  • December 16th, 8am Eastern:
    The lottery model expires, and we will pull the report of teams that opted for printers.

[LIST] - If demand > inventory, then we will randomly select the teams that will be sent the printers (applying preferences as much as possible). For teams that didn’t get selected via the lottery, their credits will be re-granted at noon, Eastern, on 12/16, and they will once again be eligible to receive the second round of credit distribution at Kickoff.

  • If demand ≤ inventory, everyone who selected the printer will be sent a printer (applying preferences as much as possible), and any remaining printers will remain in *FIRST *
    Choice.
  • If demand << inventory, everyone who selected the printer will be sent a printer (applying preferences as much as possible), and any remaining printers will remain in *FIRST *
    Choice. If inventory continues to remain, we *may *consider decreasing the number of credits required at Kickoff. In this case, teams who had already selected printers will be reimbursed the credit difference.
  • Please note that for all scenarios above, Teams may not get their… well… first choice.

[/LIST]
This process is being adopted for the printers because we hope for high demand and we want to mitigate the frantic grab at printers and frustration for those who may click 3 milliseconds late (or they’re located slightly farther away than the next Team).

Another way to think about it? You’re offering all your credits for 48 hours, as collateral, to get a 3D printer lottery ticket in a lottery where the odds are unknown (because they’re dependent on how many other teams actually decide they also want a printer). If you get a printer, your credits are gone (and you will not be issued additional credits at Kickoff). If you don’t get a printer, your credits are returned.

One last note… Because the 3D Systems and MakerGear printers were funded with government money, there is an added requirement that the Team number, name, address, contact name, contact phone number, and contact email will be shared by *FIRST *with TNFIRST, the group that kindly assumed the responsibility inherent in the funding.

Our apologies for the added complexity, but we think it’s the most appropriate way to distribute this donation. If you have general questions about *FIRST *Choice, please email [email protected]. If you have specific questions about your *FIRST *Choice order, please email [email protected].

We want to close by thanking the partners listed above for their grit and dedication to making this monumental donation a reality. We see great opportunity for additive manufacturing in FRC: from new options in prototyping to on-demand items. Good luck, Teams!

Both cool and interesting. Thoughts?

Is *this *post a game hint? :wink: :rolleyes:

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It seems that, by selecting to enter the printer lottery, you’re likely to sacrifice any chance of selecting other high-value options.

It’s hard to say what the impact of the choice is without seeing what else is available, though.

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I can’t even express how happy our President was when I showed her this

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Jumping on this offer may, or may not, be in a team’s best interest. As Madison pointed out, it’s a gamble. Every team needs to weigh the cost of getting a 3D printer over other needs this coming season may present.

I’m thrilled that the offer has been made, but… that doesn’t necessarily mean we are going to jump on it.

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exactly. I’m excited about a free 3d printer as much as the next guy, but if I look back on it, there was very little, if anything, we could’ve used a 3d printer for on our robot last year. It will definitely be useful for small profile parts, but I may be more inclined to get a couple of batteries and some pneumatics equipment over a lottery ticket for a 3d printer (and while we do get credits back, all of the items we want could be gone by then).

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How exactly does FIRST Choice Work? I am assuming that FIRST Choice will be replenished with new items after the first round. Is this true?

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Looking on the bright side, it probably will free up Talons for those who don’t want a printer.

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One last note… Because the 3D Systems and MakerGear printers were funded with government money, there is an added requirement that the Team number, name, address, contact name, contact phone number, and contact email will be shared by FIRST with TNFIRST, the group that kindly assumed the responsibility inherent in the funding.

It’s not explicit, but do those printers require the team be US-based? Not that it affects me, but we have lots of Canadian, Israeli, Mexican, etc friends.

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In years past there has been no restocking. When something is gone its gone until next year.

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Rollin’ the dice. FIRST seems to like to do this kind of “pick your poison” approach to the preseason; a kitbot that you must commit to without any sort of guiding details and now betting all your chips on one tool. It’s somewhat interesting and somewhat frustrating/aggravating.

Kudos to VEX, for saying: “Yes, we will give you a month to look at our new stuff. Here’s the cad, go poke at it. You know what you’re getting”. I’m beginning to like the guys that aren’t tied as closely to the hip to FIRST as everyone else. It’s making for a more interesting preseason.

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Gambling in FIRST! Awesome!

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I think we might go with the 3D printer just so are mentor doesn’t have to deal with the stress of FIRST choice.

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Now I just have to hope my Donor’s Choose project gets funded before hand. That would make this whole decision easier :slight_smile:

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Well depending on the specific printers and kits offered it may or may not be a good deal.

A top quality kit is under the $600 in credits it would cost you.

Couple of thoughts:

  1. If it is a kit verify when they will get delivered. Most kits only require a few hours to assemble but can require quite a bit of time to calibrate. It does not look like you will get them before the build season starts. You will have failed prints and it can take some time to learn how to get the best quality.

  2. Make sure you get a printer that can print ABS. PLA will be too brittle for any major robotic items.

  3. Maximize the build area and make sure you get a heated bed.

  4. Safety, Safety, Safety - 3d printers use a lot of heat (ABS prints at 210-225 centagrade) you should never leave them printing unattended. This can be a problem. Some large prints can take hours. I had one part of a robotic hand that took 6+ hours. Also, ABS fumes are not the best for you - make sure you use in a well ventilated area. Also, if you use ABS you are likely to want to use acetone to finish parts, glue parts, or as a bed adhesive. It is flammable and fumes are bad. Skin contact should be avoided. Wear gloves (just make sure the Acetone does not dissolve the gloves), well ventilated area, no flames.

  5. Spend a little more on better filament. While the cheap stuff is $5-$8 a roll less you will waste a lot of time on curled prints and jams.

For those in the Northern Virginia area I will be doing a session on 3d printing on Dec 7th at the DC FRC workshop. See http://dc-first.org/ for information and https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/8PTYNW3 to register.

Also, if you want to get a jump on the rush the US STEM foundation in cooperation with Team 1885 will be doing a 3D printer camp Dec 16-20 in Mclean, Va. The cost is $750 and includes a Prusa I3 printer and spool of filament. We make sure you walk out with a working 3D printer. See the attached for more details and you can register at:
https://www.fundaround.com/ustem/2013-10-22/3d-printer-camp-dec-2013/

PrinterCamp (prusa I3).docx (287 KB)


PrinterCamp (prusa I3).docx (287 KB)

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Not saying it’s a bad thing, but VEX is running a business whereas the kitbot plays a part of the game. VEX has no reason to delay their products until Kickoff (they would make less money), but there could be a very good reason why the kitbot is kept a secret.

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I am not an authority but all NASA funding is tied to US based teams, so I would think it’s likely there’s a similar restriction for this (though the fact that they didn’t mention it seems like a glaring omission, so maybe it won’t be a problem).

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They could probably play games and say “Well, these international teams are getting funded by money from Makerbot/etc. while these American teams are getting funded by NASA/Government money.”

In the end, it would put a cap on how many non-US teams get funding.

Sounds kinda sketchy, but it sounds legal to me (and, of course, that’s all that matters, right?)

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The kitbot can have specific parts for the game. I can’t remember if it was 2010 or 2012 that it had a ‘lift kit’ to help it over the bump. But you generally know exactly what you’re getting. You’re getting c-channel (unless they changed to sheet this year) with some belts, pulleys, wheels, and a couple transmissions. There is really no mystery.

We’ve never struggled to use all the parts that come with a kitbot, though last year we opted for not getting one.

People looking at the 3D printers need to think very very hard about it.3d printers require specialized technical knowledge to set up, print, and maintain. In addition, teams have to ask themselves how useful a 3d printer would be to their FIRST program. I can’t think of a single part on our robot last year that could have been 3D printed. Not one.

A lot of people think '3d printer! cool!" but don’t really think about everything that has to go into making one work effectively. Heck, look how many FIRST choice 3D printer jobs were never purchased.

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While I know that we will opt out of the 3d printer, I think a 3d printer can be useful. If our team had a 3d printer, we wouldn’t use it as a replacement for current manufacturing techniques. We would find new parts to make with a 3d printer that would make it a benefit to our team. Furthermore, we might use it to speed up our manufacturing. For example, even though we can turn spacers, we might start printing spacers so that we can spend our manpower on making other parts.

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They did release that this year’s kit bot is sheet metal construction and it’s aprox top speed.

As mentioned it could give hints to the game or rules. Last year it was set up to confirm to the new perimeter rules and keep a similar L x W ratio as the previous max dimensions. As you mentioned they included the lift kit in the past and they also included the game specific wheels for Lunacy.