I’m leading a rookie team in 2013 and we’ve been active for the past month or two trying to prepare for the season. I submitted a reply to the FRC blog and I did my best to be diplomatic. I’m going to be more candid here.
I think it stinks that rookies don’t have the same opportunity for a voucher that veteran teams do.
Well to be blunt as a rookie team do you guys have the abilities to custom fabricate a drive train that is solid and proven for your first year of competition? And the KOP drive you will be getting will be more solid then ever with toughboxes and a belt drive.
Even if rookies could choose the $450 of AM parts wouldn’t most of them just use it all up buying drive parts that the Kit Frame gives them in the first place?
Not to mention that frankly, the kitbot/kitbot on steroids is a superior drivetrain to many if not most of the custom drivetrains many teams build from scratch. Excluding of course some of the teams that have been working at it for several years such as 254, etc.
This is fantastic. Really, really good move.
Best news I’ve heard in a long time. And I’m amazed that FIRST is providing us such detailed information so early. I hope to see more of this. I have more kitbots piled up than I know what to do with. I really don’t need another.
This is a very good question, and one that I share as well. I’m also wondering if there will be a nicer way for low resource teams to interface to attach these belts to the axles/the AM wheel profile.
One can only hope,
I didn’t read it that way…Correct me if I’m wrong, but there won’t be a savings: each team will still spend the same amount for the KOP, just some will get fewer parts and a “gift card” from AndyMark.
I think the main concern is this (indirectly) favors veteran teams, and leaves less experienced/ less advanced teams where they are.
Many teams in FRC rely on the Kitbot to have a functioning drive base. Those teams are almost definitely going to opt to hold on to the Kitbot. Other teams who don’t use the Kitbot base and have an alternative (like sheet metal) can get a $450 voucher from AndyMark for a bunch of cool gadgets to use on the robot.
I don’t know if this has been ruled on yet, but I’ve seen discussion that because the voucher is a KoP item, it doesn’t count towards the Bill of Materials, effectively raising those teams’ robot budgets to $3950 (or $450 than other teams if the budget isn’t $3500 this year).
I love that teams now have the option, but I’m afraid, for the time being, there might be a larger gap between upper and lower tier teams.
That said, I’m hoping that if FIRST continues this, it will push many teams to find a way to evolve out of the Kitbot chassis and develop a new structure of drive base.
That’s assuming the kitbot is value-less, which it certainly is not.
It’s interesting that the kitbot kit is $400 (of course that may change for the new kit), so a team could take the voucher, buy the kitbot kit, and still have another $50 to spend however they wish. Unless I’m missing something, it’s essentially the same as not taking the voucher, and then getting $50 in AndyMark credit for free.
EDIT: looking more closely, it seems that this is the true kitbot kit for last year. It’s $550. It still leaves the possibility that one could get everything they want from the kitbot for less than the value of the voucher, and still have some spending money. It’s difficult to make this judgement call without knowing what the new kit will cost.
A few things to note:
Wrong. The 2013 kitbot will have mini-toughboxes, not CIMple-boxes, which is another ~35$, and contains 4 CIMs (well, it did in 2012), not 2, which is another ~50$, so doing that you would actually lose money.
edit: Chris is me got ahead of me…
1 & 2) Yes, but it’s not unreasonable that they would release this years kit at a similar price point.
3) The KoP has never come with 4 CIMs, why would they start now? (This is also dependent upon whether the CIMs are considered part of the “2013 AndyMark Kit of Parts Drive Base”. I wouldn’t consider them as such, but I’m not FIRST)
4) That’s might not be a bad trade off for $50.
I did miss the part about the ToughBox Minis
Also, see my edit to my post above
The 2012 only had 2 CIM motors.
I really hope that they release the new kitbot specs prior to 10/18. They say that it will be belt drive, but gates doesn’t make a 6-bolt pattern sprocket that would fit onto a wheel so the only option would be for gates to make a custom sprocket just for the kit (unlikely) or for the kitbot to switch to a live axle system (also unlikely). Either way it will be a massive step up from the current kitbot.
The whole point of the kitbot is that it’s easy to make, reliable, strong and simple. I wouldn’t expect First to release a kitbot that isn’t those things, and if they can pull that off with a belt drive then that’ll be a drive train better than most teams can custom make.
I’m interested to see the layout of the kitbot chassis using gates belt. The stated numbers (10.7:1 reduction and ~10fps with 6" wheels) suggest that there will be no further reduction via belt, so I wouldn’t count on multiple pulley sizes.
I could easily see a extrusion made with the six hole pattern required for the standard wheel hub made for the kit. 1000 kits, 6000 sprockets plus spares for purchase. Add on a two or three year commitment it could be done very economically.
True,
Although if FIRST is working with AM, AM/Andy could make an extrusion (with the 6 bolt pattern) for the pulley and then send it out for machining (most likely a boring operation and parting).
-RC
I was thinking the same thing, if they were to use a custom extrusion I would hope they include a 1.125 bore hole in the pulley extrusion. That would keep the sprocket concentric with the wheel and if the hole was extruded instead of bored they could save a lot of material and end up with a very light well priced product.
However I’m sure First/Gates/Am want make the kitbot as simple as possible and would want to use existing off the self components, but that might not be possible or plausible.
The other thing that this kit might bring us is new belt drive products from andymark, as belt seems to be the direction FRC is going in.
Edit: You and Indysam think alike
I would be 100% excited if AM/ gates released a belt line for FRC, and if the belts were a little thinner I would greatly appericeate it.
I run a good team and know a great deal about drivetrains. 973’s drivetrains are top tier.
If I walked today and started a rookie team, even with experienced students/mentors and a stocked shop, I would run the KOP drive as a rookie.
I think preventing rookies from accidentally making the wrong choice is a great decision.