“Me too”… the interview sounds like a great idea, the “no-seniors” thing, not so much. While I don’t entirely grasp why FIRST feels that Dean’s List winners need the award to help get into university (Really, are there Dean’s List winners who wouldn’t qualify for a great university without the award? REALLY?) I’ll also accept that they get to make the rules.
Here’s some ideas that could make things interesting:
The regional Dean’s List award winners are chosen as Grade 10/11 students. This makes them elegible to win a *Championship *Dean’s List award as a Grade 12 student. The Championship Dean’s List winner is chosen based on what the student did *after *winning their regional Dean’s List.
As a teacher leading a team, I always wanted to celebrate the contributions of our Grade 12 students. Some of them had made a four or five year committment to the team and deserved to be recognized in their final year. We know that FIRST responds very well to financial incentives… so perhaps a Kickstarter type campaign to raise a couple hundred thousand dollars to sponsor an award for Seniors only. It might not be as exclusive as the Dean’s List… maybe it is just a special medal and each team gets to select one recipient who receives the medal at their final FRC event. Donors to the campaign could negotiate with FIRST on how they would like outstanding seniors to be recognized.
I guess perspective in this change is important. FRC existed for 18 years under many different hats before this award was even added to the stable. As most here can attest, that doesn’t mean there weren’t any “Dean’s List”-quality students for that period of time, whatever you define that to be. There are a number of alumni on here who graduated before this award ever came into existence, so obviously something else has brought you back.
I’m not a fan of the change only because it seems very urgent and reactive, unlike all the other changes that have taken place over the last year. Teams who traditionally nominate seniors for this award (if a 4-year practice is a “tradition”) and teams who live in areas where the criteria doesn’t match their college application process are damaged by this by not being given time to adjust. Were this to come about in 2015, I think I would understand it more.
In 2012, my team moved from nominating the graduating class for the award to nominating those in the junior class. As far as the student leadership was concerned, we didn’t really care because when we weren’t plugging away at the robot, we were identifying the future student leadership and transitioning. After we bagged the robot, seniors lead the events and then we were pretty much done, acting in advisory roles and polishing up our high school careers.
I understand it’s different for all teams, but I think making this limit shifts the award’s intent to something that works to recognize students and teams to something that works to recognize AND serve the mission of the student, team, and FIRST. FIRST wasn’t getting much out of this award from seniors. A Dean’s List finalist who is a junior can now take charge of programs and initiatives throughout the entire region in their senior year, as I know a few are. That serves the student, team, and FIRST.
There are plenty of ways to recognize your students and mentors. I know we always did at the end of every season. This award was the only award that stood the chance of not helping to further the mission of FIRST–teams keep team awards on their resume, WF(F)A winners stay on their teams and with FIRST forever, but DL(F)A’s didn’t come with that guarantee. With this move, they just might.
I am very disappointed in these changes. Deserving students are deserving students. Period. Also, the interview might well be disruptive to the busy Deans list nominees (they are exemplary students, so they will probably be busy at the competition).
I’m sorry, but some of these arguments justifying the change in eligibility don’t hold water, in my opinion.
Paraphrasing what several of you have said, “Seniors who win the award aren’t going to do anything for FIRST. Juniors are going to stay involved forever.” This argument is ridiculous. What’s to say the Juniors don’t just quit FIRST after they graduate? Why would a senior who has invested enough in the program to justify winning a Dean’s List award just abandon FIRST more than any other student? Why don’t we nominate only Freshmen for Dean’s List, because then we can get 3 whole years of leadership out of them before they abandon FIRST when they graduate?
Tracking alumni? I heard Dean charge the Dean’s List winners with this at CMP. Are you saying that Seniors are worthless in keeping track of their peers, but Juniors will be awesome at it?
Giving the Dean’s List award to seniors doesn’t further the mission of FIRST?!? If recognizing and celebrating an individual or group who embodies the ideals of FIRST can’t be seen as furthering the mission of FIRST, maybe we should do away with Woodie Flowers, Chairman’s, and FIRST Founders Award. You get what you celebrate.
As much as I disagree with the change, at least the argument from FIRST about helping with college applications has some merit – though there are many detractors on this justification as well, mostly from outside the US.
It is a ridiculous argument, and, I understand you’re paraphrasing, but I haven’t seen anyone say/imply that in such an extreme way.
The argument is that seniors who win DL are less likely to have a direct impact on inspiring/being a symbol/influence on their specific program(ie. team, region). Juniors are much more likely to have this influence. Junior DL’s are much more likely to DIRECTLY be involved the same ways they were as they enter their senior years.
Example: A junior becomes a Dean’s List finalist. Now, in their senior year, they can continue being 100% involved with their team as a student. Now, freshman entering the team can see this student as a symbol/influence throughout their FIRST career.
On the flipside, a senior DLF either is not there in their “home region”/on their “home team” and everything a new freshman hears about them is secondhand, unless they immediately come back to mentor(which is an argument/discussion for a different thread).
Essentially, what I’m trying to say is, freshman/those new to FIRST can easily be much more receptive to a DL finalist who is still a student-it presents a goal that is realistic to someone with no idea what FIRST is like. It’s a much clearer, more realistic goal in saying, “I wanna be just like that senior!” as opposed to imagining them trying to think, “I guess maybe I can be just like that new mentor who was on the team last year…”*
Basically, aside from the college admissions argument, FIRST seems to want there to be firsthand, recognized major influences still being students in the program.
*yes, this paragraph is jumbled, but I hope it got my point across
I won’t repeat what many have already said, so in the words of Inigo Montoya, “I will 'splain. No. There is too much, I will sum up.”
Interviews: YES. I feel that giving judges face-to-face time with the students is worth whatever logistical complications it may add. Sure, these particular students will probably be busy, but they can spare 10 minutes for an interview.
Sophomore/Junior restrictions: I’m probably bias, as I am a senior this year, but I’ll try to be un-bias). I feel the same as many others have said. Why completely eliminate them from the running? Many seniors deserve recognition. At the very least, give an advance notice of a year for those teams who traditionally nominate seniors.
A lot of seniors who graduate from high school, and consequently from student-hood of FRC, tend to go off to colleges to earn the higher education the program is designed to inspire them to pursue. A lot of juniors in the program tend to stay in high school for another year before they graduate and go off to college. Teams often have a habit of crafting legends of notable alumni, but may have limited future interaction with the former participant. Witnessing the clout a person and team can earn firsthand from earning a DLFA and watching it immediately turn into positive energy for the student, the team, and FIRST, I support the change. I don’t have to fall into a trap of slippery-slope logic to think otherwise.
Dean has charged all students and teams with tracking alumni, and the success hasn’t really come out in spades. Now, say you have a Dean’s List winner that is an active student working with active alumni and parents to craft such a tracking system, it could (and does) prove to be effective in some cases.
You’re right in saying that we get what we celebrate. Every student who puts their heart and mind into this program is rewarded, as is every mentor, volunteer, judge, and executive, and they are all celebrated at every FIRST event.
Speaking pragmatically, we need more than celebration. We need blue chips. We need students and teams now more than ever to go out and make this program more accessible financially, more successful in team quality, bigger and brighter in scope–the program has grown its wings and has stood at the edge of a steep cliff for some time, inching ever closer to the drop. Whether FIRST falls or flies over the next decade depends on a lot of things, but not squeezing every ounce of potential out of your brightest stars is a disservice to everyone in the program, especially said “stars”.
The other awards you mentioned of doing away with: Founder’s Award, Woodie Flowers Award, Chairman’s Award… how many sponsors, mentors, and teams have dropped off the face of the FIRST world? Next to zero. They continue to push ahead. How many Dean’s List Finalists and winners have been lost in the wind?
I’ve seen kids win DL who haven’t done much after graduating, and I know plenty who didn’t win who do a lot for FIRST and don’t need the validation.
My concern is actually regarding kids and parents who might be mislead about how big of an impact something as small as being a Dean’s List winner can be in the college admissions process. We all saw an example of this a few months back (if you want the link for that thread, PM me. I don’t want to put anyone on the spot here).
I hope FIRST is very clear to kids and their parents about how much (or little) of an impact this can make for admissions at colleges. Also, working towards a Dean’s List award should not be the motivation for hard work and dedication to this community, but I fear we would see more of it with this kind of emphasis being put on this award.
+$0.02
Additionally, I actually want some clarification from Frank about what kind of criteria the winners of Dean’s List meet. What do the judges think sets these kids apart from the rest? How do you keep track of their involvement in FIRST after they graduate? What do you do with the winners who don’t stay involved in FIRST after graduation? I like the interview idea because it will bring forward more kids who truly are dedicated to FIRST and STEM and don’t do it for an award. I just hope interviews won’t interfere with their involvement in various parts of a team during competitions.
One more thing - are all the Dean’s List essays available to read somewhere? I would like to check them out.
Change not reverted - Change delayed one year. There’s still plenty to debate about.
And on that note: How would you feel if we changed the Woodie Flowers Finalist award so that only college juniors, college seniors, and the unemployed were eligible? I mean, the WFFA could really help them get a job, so why would we want to give the award to people who are already employed? How would they benefit?
Clearly ridiculous, I know, but I’m having trouble coming up with an argument against that proposal that doesn’t also apply to the Dean’s List Finalist award.
We should showcase our best. WFFA is unrestricted because a great mentor is hard to define. DL should be unrestricted because a great student is even harder. Sometimes it takes a few years for the students to grow and restricting it to students that are relatively young just so they can use it on their college apps is, frankly, silly. We should celebrate those who deserve to be celebrated.
I feel that I can’t really add much that hasn’t been said already but, this. An award should go to who deserves it the most, not who it can benefit the most.
How many WFFA’s have you known that stopped participating in FRC immediately after winning the award?
To win either WFFA or DL, you pretty much have to be heavily invested in the program. That’s a given. However, when major life changes happen, that investment can very easily stop. That’s what tends to happen to people when they graduate - they go to college and stop participating in FRC. Some (hopefully many, but I don’t have any numbers to back up a quantifiable statement) come back to FRC later, once they figure out college or graduate into the working world and have the time to commit again. But most don’t participate the year after they graduate.
Now, some WFFA winners end up leaving the program shortly after they win… they could get married, have a kid, move for work, or any of a hundred life-altering events. But most WFFA winners I’ve known have continued on with their teams for years after winning. They continue to be an inspiration to their students, and to be involved with the broader FIRST community in their area. They stand there as a living example of what a mentor should be, not an invisible legend.
That’s the difference between a student and a mentor. A mentor has an undefined time limit on their involvement with a program. A student has until they graduate.
My apologies for reviving an old thread, but here’s some info I got from a MAR info session yesterday at Duel on the Delaware regarding the Dean’s List interviews:
All Dean’s List nominees in MAR will be guaranteed an interview scheduled at one of the districts they attend (sounds like preferably the earliest one). No promises that it won’t interfere with their team’s matches or chairman’s presentation schedule though, since those aren’t scheduled until at the event. They are planning on having the interviewer being the same person that reads the nominee’s essay. There will only be one interview per nominee per season (They hope to get down with all of the interviews during the first few weeks of competitions, if possible). Once the organizers get the info for which teams are submitting how many nominees and which teams are competing where, they will create a schedule for when/where each nominee will be interviewed. The nominees will then be narrowed down to a certain number of semifinalists that will be eligible to compete for Dean’s List Finalist at the MAR Regional Championship.
Hello Mentors, Students & FRC Fans, I would like to find out what’s the last date to submit student nominations for Dean’s list this season. And where I can find the forms etc., to complete one if I have not missed the deadline. I really appreciate if someone could reply. Thank you very much.
Tarun Gupta, Mentor & Coach Team 1677 - QuantumNinjas of Kalamazoo
