FRC Collaboration 2007: Respectful Remix

Alright,

Some discussion about FRC team design collaboration became very judgmental and hurtful in another thread. This is the respectful remix. Feel free to discuss collaboration here, the right way. What worked for you, what didn’t work, what can be improved, what’s unique to your situation, what difficulties exist in collaboration, what benefits you saw, etc…

However, the discussion needs to refrain from personal attacks, negative assumptions about teammates and other teams, and statements about one way being “better” than another. This is also not the thread to apologize, make amends, or explain yourself from the other thread that was closed. As I asked over there, please do those things privately and allow for healing. Perhaps, when the time is right, some of you may want to begin a thread in “thanks/congrats” once common ground and peace are found. Learn, share, grow - do NOT judge.

Carry on…

I am glad that my teams do collaboration on robot build and design. We are a very unique situation, different than every collaboration I have heard about, except for 340 and 424. We began the collaboration idea when team 494 became to big for one team. We were running out of jobs for students to have a hands on experience in our build room, so when team 70, a nearby team was going to fold due to the loss of a mentor, team 494 came in and took the team under our wing, inviting all of their members to join us and work at our shop with us. Only a handful of members came so to fill out the members of the team, we added any student that wanted to be on 70. Mainly these were the new students to the team that joined that year, but several experienced members went over to help our as well. The partnership we had helped build a playful rivalry that existed all throughout last season, even into the offseason. This collaboration has created a bond that we hope will never break.

The space shuttle is built by multiple teams working together to make the shuttle.

So it makes sense some teams want to do this. You learn real world experience by splitting up things between teams.

To be a really good team you need to have lots of depth. You can do this two ways, have a very strong team or split it up between a partnership like we did.

I can understand those who have a critical view of collaborations and the “Triplet challenge”. I’m all for any collaboration that brings in a new team(s) OR a collaboration that prevents a team from dropping out. With the huge number of teams in FIRST, sustaining existing teams is very important and collaborations may provide yet another solution. After all, there are several FIRST teams that merged into one team and we aren’t critical of that - so don’t be critical for a collaboration that keeps some struggling teams alive. I think the long distance collaborations offer a new look at doing business in a global economy, a skill that will be (is) highly sought after. Any cross-continental collaborations next year??

Thanks Rich for refocusing the previous thread. Our collaborative situation this year was purely a decision to help two teams that would have folded otherwise. We have a lost a lot of mentors over the years and are left with a handful of mentors that can help on a daily basis. The decision to build three identical robots was one made purely on our available resources. We would have loved to support three distinctly different designs, but were unable to do so.

Personally, I did not know what to expect out of this collaboration at first. I will tell you that it has been one of the most rewarding experiences that I have had in my 9 years with FIRST (besides meeting my wife). I saw students from completely different backgrounds work together where they maybe would not have had the chance otherwise. Pretty much all team members selflessly helped on all the robots. I am very proud of everyone on all three teams and I hope it was as rewarding experience for all of you as it was for me. I wish all the FIRST teams good luck this year. We will see you at GLR, Detroit, and West Michigan.

I can understand, and I support teams sharing resources. I would just like the hear some of these teams weigh in on their rationale for building identical robots?

We are in a very unique situation…
340 and 424 are out of the same high school… yes, two FRC teams in one high school. :]

We share mentors, but built two totally different robots…

It’s a very cool experience!

Team 648 is fairly close to team 107, Team ROBOTICS from Holland, MI. We haven’t collaborated and the issue has never come up. That would be a difficult thing to do being fairly far apart. However, we do mesh together some of our other situations. For example, we have stayed in the same hotel together in Chicago for three years now. The first year it was by pure accident but last year and this year we’ve intentionally done this, as well as shared nightly meals. Last season, when we were in Michigan for WMR, team 107 invited us to their school for a movie and some Halo. It was a great time. We’re very close for teams that are so far away. I thank Lav and my mother for that.

Back to the robots. Hypothetical situation, hopefully it can come real. When 648 gains the resources and interest in the area or somewhere around, it would be great for us to begin a new team. I will propose the idea that we could enlist the help of our “sister” team in 107 to help design a fairly unique robot, but with the major resemblances to our (648+107) bots. Kind of mix two designs. Nice run-on sentence, huh?

Not necessarily triplets in the Niagara sense, but in a similar way. Three different robots, but the rookie team has a similarity to the two mentoring teams.

This year we set out to do things a little differently than the usual collaboration. What we wanted to do was form an independent collaboration where each team worked on their own robot but we all worked together to help one-another. The plan was to have the 2 teams work independently to build 2 different robots but share the same resources, tools, & equipment. As the season progressed team 73 joined us more frequently and further contributed to design ideas. The nice thing about creating different robots was we could look at each others plans and help critique the designs. We made sure that communication between teams was open and allowed everyone to speak their minds. I would think that if all 3 teams set out to build the same robot we could have designed & built a better robot quicker but that is not why WE do FIRST. (not saying this is right or wrong, it’s just the way we do it.

Things we discovered as the season progressed.
There was a lot of sharing of ideas
The Bridgeport was very busy.
The welding machine was very busy.
We used a lot of aluminum, welding rod, and argon.
Everyone was VERY busy.
We (including our friends on 73) were able to build 3 competitive robots (plus we are almost finished with 2 practice bots)
We can eat a lot of food
There are some great people out there willing to mentor kids
We have good friends at 73
I must be nuts for taking this project on

I’ve had the pleasure of watching another kind of collaboration this year. The 9 Baltimore area teams formed the “Baltimore Area Alliance.”
There are BAA teams that have lots of mentoring help, and others that have little. Each team has its own strengths and challenges. They want to have their own identity and build their own robots, but they have joined forces to help with fundraising and to help share resources. A local foundation donated the use of their 501©3, and there were grants to the BAA divided by the group. There were students from one team that did a fundraising presentation on behalf of the others. They held a common fundraising dinner. They are trying to help each other while competing. I believe this fits into Dean’s vision of “coopertition.” This group is still testing the waters and getting to know each other, figuring out what will work for them.

FIRST is all about partnerships, and each team has to figure out what works for them. What works one year, may not the next as teams often have to reinvent themselves. I hope everyone involved this year can realize the gift they have been given.

We built identical robots:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53872&highlight=1902+1369

1369 built two bases, 1902 built two arms. Idea is that building two of something is easier than building one of something. 1369 is great at drive trains, 1902 is good at top end and programming. By building it this way we were able to finish hardware and wiring at end of week 5, and that allowed us to have a good auto mode and driver practice.

We should have a strong start at florida regional.

How are you accounting for cost of the parts that the other team built for you? In previous year’s I believe the ruling was that you have to include cost of labor for parts that were not built by team members. I seem to remember that when Kingman & the Cheesy Poofs first did this they shared the design but each built their own parts.

btw I am very much in favor of collaboration - it is not as easy to execute successfully as it sounds.

To me, this brings up the question of awards. Many awards are given for specific design features (Delphi “Driving Tomorrow’s Technology”, GM Industrial Design, Rockwell Automation Innovation in Control, Motorola Quality, etc.). How are Judges to evaluate teams that have designed and developed part of a robot (say a drive train) in 6 weeks (and field a complete 'bot via collaboration) with a team who have designed and fabricated a complete robot by themselves?

I know that FIRST is not fair, but it is “borrowing a page from sports” and is a “competition” with numerous rules to keep something of a level playing field for our “superbowl of smarts”. I also understand that teams that collaborate are perhaps giving members a closer example of what “real-world” engineering is like with multiple companies working on a single project. Still, I believe there is a fundamental question to look at here: How does collaboration (as described by Doug) effect the competition aspect of FIRST?

-Mr. Van

If I were 1902 (which I’m not, and thus can’t speak for), I’d just ask the judges not to consider their drivetrain for any technical awards, similar to a team that’s already won Rookie All-Star at one event telling the judges at their next one that they don’t want to win again. Doesn’t seem like a particularly big deal.

Not all collaborations work with team X building the base and subsystem 1 and team Y building subsystem 2. It’s very plausible that collaborating teams both worked on all parts of the robot.

Something that did Mr. Leppard did not point out was that while Team 1369 built the drive base and our team handled the arm and programming, it was not a completely separate operation. Both teams had the same amount of input on both aspects of the machine. We had several meetings with team members driving over to the others facility to come up with a complete design together, and then decided who would work on which part.

I personally understand the argument about winning awards because frankly, I in years past I did not feel it was fair. While I am not speaking for all the collaborations that took place, I feel that because of the way ours was done it would be fair to compete for all of the awards. These are my personal opinions and do not in anyway represent those of either teams 1369 or 1902.

I believe that this is skewing the discussion away from what this thread was originally intended (reference: see the 3 posts following this one) and I would respectfully ask that we keep on topic…if we need ANOTHER (see the ones from the past several years) moderated discussion on collaboration we should do this in another thread. Thank You.

Many people have asked me why we decided to do a collaboration this year. It seems like a fair question, as it seems to be still a mildly hot topic. I must admit if you read my collaboration posts from when this became a hot topic back in the 60/254 days I was mildly condescending towards the idea. I was under the impression that It was unfair to many of those involved, I believed it was unfair to the FIRST community, I believed it was unfair to competition.

That being said, I thought it was unfair until I realized that this program was only mildly about the physical competition itself. Both 1902 and 1369 are respectable teams, with respectable people, and respectable ideals. We both strive to work hard in all areas of FIRST, demonstrations, outreach, fund raising. Not being able to speak the behalf of 1369 but only my team I know that we do everything in our power to help strengthen those around us so that our Area is improved because of this.

But I guess to stay on topic why did we choose to collaborate, and more specifically why did we choose to collaborate with a veteran team? The answer for me is actually quite simple but three fold. First and foremost, 1902 is still a young team, we are a second year team and we do a lot, we may not look like a second year team but we are just that. There are 20 students on our team and 2 mechanical mentors, both of which are in college, the oldest being me and only Junior in standing. Not being sponsored by any schools we still do not have a home location. We still build in my garage and tho we did raise money for more than just a Chop saw, drill press and hand tools this year, we are still what would be considered very under developed in machine capabilities. Our students are brilliant and resourceful, eager to learn and work hard. But when it comes down to it, often their ideas may super seed our capabilities, and its extraordinarily difficult to see the best design cut out because its just not possible for us to complete. 1902 was very successful in its rookie year, and I wanted to see the same excitement out of our students as we did last year, and in that our team decided that a real world style collaboration would be help to conquer our lack of resources.

The second reason can be seen all across Delphi, there is a lack of competitiveness this year. FIRST has put such an emphasis on growth it often seems like no one is tending to the growing pains. More and more respectable teams seem to be dropping off the radar, certainly faster than new super teams are springing up. This years challenge may have been more difficult but regardless across the nation there is a trend occurring. We’ve seen this problem and have become dedicated to sustaining our local teams more than raising new ones. Rookie teams will still pop up and thats great and too be encouraged, but we want to see many Veteran teams be able to help them, and not need help themselves. One of the biggest gripes people have with this years game is the random match algorithm. Teams say " Number has nothing to do with quality of the robot, if your a low number it does not mean your better than a middle or high number. " This is 100% accurate but this I also believe is a problem. This should not be the case. The low numbers and middle numbers should, in the majority, be better with only a few exceptions. Veteran teams should be exactly that " Veteran " but often times teams are just numbers with no experience. This dedication to sustaining teams or helping veteran teams grow so they can better impact their communities is important. What better way to inspire and impress people than to show them something that people say “WOW! You helped build that?” If you have 5 minutes to get someone interested in FIRST a well built robot as an example is the best tool.

Lastly, for the team this was about real world experience. Every year Dean, or Woody, or Dave steps up to the podium and says " This competition is the only competition where students get to work hands on with professionals to get an idea of what the real world is like. " If you don’t take advantage of this, I personally believe its foolish. Now I realize everyone is not lucky enough to have professionals on their team, mechanically speaking neither 1902 nor 1369 has a professional engineer. But as far as establishing time lines, learning about the design process, dependability, responsibility to make deadlines or the discipline of someone else relying on you is extraordinarily important. The knowledge that what you design has to be reliable and dependable and time friendly and cost effective is lesson thats extremely emphasized in a collaboration. A phrase we came up with this year was “Simplicity in Design, Reliability in Function.” This simple design mantra teaches all those involved something that often gets over looked. The argument can be made " You should learn that on a single team anyways, " but the fact of the matter is that in collaboration this point is emphasized. If you don’t follow these rules, you don’t only let your own team down, you let your partner down, and in a way you let FIRST down.

Four years ago, I made the argument that it was pointless to see two Identical robots at competition that I’d feel cheated out of my experience learning from your teams. Now I make the counter. Show me two Identical robots that I can learn good engineering practice from, that will WOW their respective communities, and that raises the level of their respective competitions, and I’ll applaud their effort to inspire and to strive towards the goals of FIRST.

P.s. To answer some of the posed questions. Gary all costs were accounted for in the collaborative effort. Machine shops that were used were approached as sponsoring both teams, and all costs incurred were accounted for. Many of the efforts in assembly were taken on by both teams collectively and design was a collaborative effort. All mentors involved with the construction process acted as mentors for both teams in respect to the learning/build process in design, fabrication, and assembly.

P.P.S. Mr. Van, To be honest tho awards are nice, they are not what drives 1902 in competition. It wasn’t really in the consideration during the talks, however, through a slight miscommunication 1902 and 1369 will not attend the same competition. So this should be a none factor, however, If you are extending that if a component was not completely designed or fabricated by teams then I guess Andy Baker should win half the design quality awards out there. These collaborations, or usage of like designs are not intended to skew competition but to enhance. Most of these awards about final product and not design process. We do not hide the fact that we collaborated at competition, just as we don’t hide the fact that we purchased Andy Mark performance wheels or 2 speed transmissions. If the judges feel it necessary to score us lower based on the fact that our Robot is not completely unique that is there perogative and that is fine within the realm of the competition. Tho neither 1369 nor 1902 has won an engineering based award yet it does not make our accomplishment any less impressive. A combined 18 out 22 attempted autonomous caps, or 0 matches missed due to mechanical difficulties through 2 competitions, that is rewarding enough. Our collaboration has helped tons of teams and hopefully soon the presentation of our autonomous code will be available to all. I imagine all those who use bits and pieces from our autonomous code should also not be eligible for awards either. :rolleyes: Many designs are not 100% your own, such is a fact of life, and of competition, the teams collaborative accomplishments however are not any less impressive.

Dan, I was with you for most of your post, but I disagree about teams being less competitive. There is a definite misconception about this. Some teams have ebbs and flows of competitive ability, and down and up years. Sure 45, 67, and 175 missed the elimination rounds for the first time in their history in 2006. But look how they responded in 2007, 45 and 175 have regional wins, and 67 and 175 have each been the first overall selection in their elimination “draft”. Sure, some old powerhouses have folded, but this isn’t new. 16 didn’t compete in 2001, the year after they won the National Chairman’s. And there is a new breed of powerhouses being born as well. Let’s examine some of the teams over 1000 (2003+). 1002 has 3 Regional Chairman’s, and 2 EIs. 1038 won Curie in only their second year, and visited the regional finals twice this year. 1114 has a stunning 7 gold medals, and 4 silvers. 1126 has already been on Einstein twice. 1213 is constantly competitive, although unrewarded. 1251 has a regional championship each of the past two years, and a pair of finals as well. 1261 won the 2005 and 2006 Peachtree regionals, and was the first overall selection this year. 1305 has 3 gold and 5 silver medals since their rookie year in 2004. 1403 has been one of the most consistent teams, although they haven’t been able to punch through for a gold yet (2 silvers, finalist and EI, are nice though). The 1500s are loaded, 1501, 1503 (even post-collaboration with 1114), 1511, 1523, etc. And of course there’s 1610, 1625, 1680, 1731, 1732, etc etc etc

As for the awards portion, VCU was interesting. All 3 of the West Henrico Triad won an award. 540’s regional championship doesn’t really apply to the conversation, but 1086’s Delphi Driving Tomorrow’s Technology, and 384’s Motorola Quality certainly do. How would 384 have any more of a quality machine than 1086 or 540? How would 1086 have any more new technology than 384 and 540?

There is nothing really all that unique about 1902 and 1369 robots. Six wheel two speed transmission with an arm is common place. We didn’t really have anything that outstanding to win awards. So I think it was a moot point.

BUT, both our teams realized we did not have enough depth of team to build a robot in 5 weeks, so we worked together to combine strengths and overcome weaknesses, thus bots were delivered in 5 weeks, so practice and software could be done in the last week.

We could have done the same thing if we had 1369 two mentors on our team full time, then had two teams working on different parts.

I lived in Silicon Valley where Apple, HP, Microsoft and others were born. No company does it alone, they accomplish great things by combining forces.

When Dan approached me with the idea of working with 1369 I was skeptic, what if 1369 dropped the ball, how would parts built at different locations fit into a single plan. But I recognized the plan as our only hope to build a winning bot. It was a great gamble that I feel paid off.

When you guys go into industry, you will learn partnership is what it is all about.