[FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!

[Jack_poldon1]

I really like the FRC Top 25 for this reason. Every week, there is a smattering of teams I’ve never heard of on it that are amazing.

These are the teams that don’t win the banners, don’t have a big presence on CD, and are generally unknowns in the community. But these teams have built otherwise world-class machines that some very knowledgeable peers have chosen to recognize.

Without a doubt, I scan the list for teams I DON’T recognize, and pay a lot more attention to them than the ones I DO. To me, this is the best part about FRC Top 25.

In fact…

There is a big grin on my face seeing the team in the #17 spot, who no one outside of Ontario has ever seen before. Yet enough people have picked up on them to recognize that a robot with:

• a 7-disc auton

• feeder station cycling/pyramid shots

• ground pick-up/pyramid shots

• full court shooting

• 10pt hang

…is probably one of the best robots in the world right now - despite this team NEVER having won a regional, or ever qualifying for champs before.

They’re one of the least recognized teams with respect to the amount that they’ve been able to achieve consistently for the past few years, both on and off the field.

It’s amazing to here feedback like this. Our team has worked hard for 10 years and have come 2nd countless times. As a senior member of team 1310, I’ve gone through 5 finals against 1114 and 2056 (to lose them all). However, both teams we view as role models and the push us and other Canadian teams to excellence. This year we finally pulled through to advance to the Championships (first time in team history), with help from the wild card and our Waterloo eliminations alliance(610 and 3756).
This year in particular, our team has definitely stepped up our game. Without the help from teachers(due to the Ontario Teachers Work Action), we have relied on the support of our principal and mentors. This has been our most successful season by far and it’s not over yet.

If you haven’t heard of our team here’s a couple of links:
http://watchfirstnow.com/archive3.php?id=62514775
http://watchfirstnow.com/archive3.php?id=62472036
http://watchfirstnow.com/archive3.php?id=63000921

Team 1310 - Runnymede Robotics

www.runnymederobotics.com

See everyone in St. Louis!!!
Thanks again Mr. Lim!!!

[ErvinI]

OK, I compared the Top 25 to their OPR ranking (not an unflawed system, but at these based on data).

Top 25---- OPR

25. 1334— 50
26. 2169— 8
27. 624— 24
28. 1806— 12
29. 11---- 21
30. 1718— 39
31. 2590— 18
32. 341— 266
33. 1310— 37
34. 111— 29
35. 868— 6
36. 1477— 49
37. 359— 16
38. 148— 46
39. 67— 32
40. 610— 38
41. 1717— 17
42. 33— 10
43. 469— 4
44. 987— 3
45. 118— 5
46. 254— 23
47. 1986— 7
48. 2056— 1
49. 1114— 2

And since this team was discussed, 1983’s OPR is #95.

For reference’s sake, here’s a comparison between their Max OPR Rank and their FRCTop25 rank:

Top 25---- Max OPR Rank (Average OPR Rank)

25. 1334— 22 (50)
26. 2169— 19 (8)
27. 624— 7 (24)
28. 1806— 24 (12)
29. 11---- 46 (21)
30. 1718— 45 (39)
31. 2590— 9 (18)
32. 341— 284 (266)
33. 1310— 65 (37)
34. 111— 21 (29)
35. 868— 10 (6)
36. 1477— 11 (49)
37. 359— 18 (16)
38. 148— 20 (46)
39. 67— 15 (32)
40. 610— 33 (38)
41. 1717— 6 (17)
42. 33— 16 (10)
43. 469— 3 (4)
44. 987— 4 (3)
45. 118— 5 (5)
46. 254— 13 (23)
47. 1986— 8 (7)
48. 2056— 2 (1)
49. 1114— 1 (2)

Max OPR reference: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1258437&postcount=65

[Bob_Steele]

There are over 2500 FRC teams.
There are over 6 dozen events this year.

There were only 80 ballots.

There is plenty of time for me to
a) respect a team like 1983 that won 4 banners in 3 straight events
b) watch Mike & Justin’s show and have some fun for a few hours
c) pass my Computer science class

But, as I imagine is the case for a lot of people, it’s hard to take the right amount of time to do the due diligence necessary to fill out a bracket that one is comfortable calling an honest assessment of the top 1% of teams in competition, so polls go entirely unfilled.

It’s a peer poll. It’s all for fun. Like there is an East Coast bias in sports, the poll reflects an obvious Northeast, California, and Michigan bias because there are high concentrations of teams there and a high likelihood voters hail from those locations. Results like 1986 and 111 are results of being very visible presence on Chief Delphi, which honestly can’t be said for a lot of teams in the Southeast or Northwest.

If you built a robot and a team that won 4 banners in 3 events, I’m not sure what other validation you need other than that of multiple panels of judges, the results on the field, and most importantly, the impact your team is making at home.

I guess I need to make a comment. I really appreciate the show. I know it takes time and effort to do it and dedication to FIRST so thank you Mike and Justin for doing it. We had great fun last year with you after the little misspelling incident.

Our team was blessed this year to have great students, great mentors, great alumni, and GREAT alliance partners. We learned a lot from competing. It has been wonderful to see our kids inspired.

Top 25 is fun. I learn about teams I never have seen. Last year I was amazed with some of those teams at CMP. Let’s keep it fun. Vote if you wish. Watch the show by all means. Be proud of your teams!!

Banners and rankings are not why we do this. Inspiration is.

You all inspire me … Even after more than a decade of FIRST…

We will see you all in a couple of weeks and renew our friendships and
“Compete like crazy”.

Good luck on the field!!!

[EricDrost]

For reference’s sake, here’s a comparison between their Max OPR Rank and their FRCTop25 rank:

Top 25---- Max OPR Rank (Average OPR Rank)

1983 does quite a bit better in this regard:
1983— 25 (95)

But that uses week five data, not week six.
Edit: My mistake, it uses week six data. I assumed it used week 5 because it was posted in the week 5 OPR thread.

[D.Allred]

Mike and Justin, I appreciate all the time and effort put into a very entertaining show. FRC Top 25 is great fun!

It’s amazing to here feedback like this. Our team has worked hard for 10 years and have come 2nd countless times. As a senior member of team 1310, I’ve gone through 5 finals against 1114 and 2056 (to lose them all). However, both teams we view as role models and the push us and other Canadian teams to excellence. This year we finally pulled through to advance to the Championships (first time in team history), with help from the wild card and our Waterloo eliminations alliance(610 and 3756).
This year in particular, our team has definitely stepped up our game. Without the help from teachers(due to the Ontario Teachers Work Action), we have relied on the support of our principal and mentors. This has been our most successful season by far and it’s not over yet.

Jack, I’ve seen your team play. You are scary good. Hope to play WITH you in St Louis.

[Mike_Starke]

FRCtop25 used to do a coaches poll; and it was decent and accurate. The current rankings are garbage, it’s more about buzz and hype than anything else.

Thanks for voting to change that… oh wait… you didn’t. How can you complain that the rankings are garbage when you don’t vote yourself?! Who knows what your vote could have done to the rankings. “Be the change you want to see in the world…”

Justin and I have never claimed that these rankings are anywhere close to official. We have always said, the more voters, the more evened out it will be. We do this for fun; a way to talk robotics throughout the week, a time to share with other FIRST addicts, a way to laugh and have fun on a Wednesday night. The rankings are secondary to all of that.

But in other news. Thank you for all of the support guys. We can’t tell you how much we appreciate all the support and love. It means more than you will ever know. Thanks for giving us a reason to keep going.

[connor.worley]

We have always said, the more voters, the more evened out it will be.

Somehow, I don’t see this making the rankings more insightful. For the same reasons we hold Looking Forward posts and the like above normal chatter.

[Mike_Starke]

More voters would imply more voters from across the country. Maybe the reason why 1983 wasn’t in the top 25 was because there’s not too many voters in the Pacific Northwest. Maybe why Southeastern US teams didn’t get many votes was because of the same reason. People tend to vote based on the teams they’ve seen. Maybe a Northeatern voter hasn’t watched must westcoast events. Maybe our voters are Michigan/MAR heavy. Who knows.
I know I’m not making much sense, but the logic is there. The more voters the better.

[AdamHeard]

I did vote… In the coaches poll… and that was cancelled.

I love the concept of the show, my fault is with the voting process. Even if everyone informed votes, they will be drowned out tenfold by the rest of chiefdelphi. This was very evident in the 2011 rankings comparing the public vs. coaches poll.

Thanks for voting to change that… oh wait… you didn’t. How can you complain that the rankings are garbage when you don’t vote yourself?! Who knows what your vote could have done to the rankings. “Be the change you want to see in the world…”

Justin and I have never claimed that these rankings are anywhere close to official. We have always said, the more voters, the more evened out it will be. We do this for fun; a way to talk robotics throughout the week, a time to share with other FIRST addicts, a way to laugh and have fun on a Wednesday night. The rankings are secondary to all of that.

But in other news. Thank you for all of the support guys. We can’t tell you how much we appreciate all the support and love. It means more than you will ever know. Thanks for giving us a reason to keep going.

[EricDrost]

I did vote… In the coaches poll… and that was cancelled.

I love the concept of the show, my fault is with the voting process. Even if everyone informed votes, they will be drowned out tenfold by the rest of chiefdelphi. This was very evident in the 2011 rankings comparing the public vs. coaches poll.

Considering there are probably under 100 voters, by your standards there are only 10 informed people in all of FRC? Nice.

[Andrew_Schreiber]

I love the concept of the show, my fault is with the voting process. Even if everyone informed votes, they will be drowned out tenfold by the rest of chiefdelphi. This was very evident in the 2011 rankings comparing the public vs. coaches poll.

You love the concept of the show yet you complain it’s a bunch of uninformed voting. Sounds to me like you don’t like the concept at all. It’s one of the biggest problems with democracy, the uninformed are equal to the informed.

Disclaimer — I agree which is why I don’t even pay much attention to where I rank/don’t rank.

[PayneTrain]

Hey I just wanted to let everyone know I disagree with the voting system for a peer poll that has no real impact and is just for fun, and because of this I’m pretty sure the teams I work on just aren’t going to enter robots next year. Anyone else want to join in? Protest! Protest!

Or we could wait for cooler heads to prevail. This is all just… I just can’t… sigh.

[Andrew_Schreiber]

Hey I just wanted to let everyone know I disagree with the voting system for a peer poll that has no real impact and is just for fun, and because of this I’m pretty sure the teams I work on just aren’t going to enter robots next year. Anyone else want to join in? Protest! Protest!

Or we could wait for cooler heads to prevail. This is all just… I just can’t… sigh.

BUT ROWBOATS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS! /s

[Bill_B]

Occupy ? ? ? ? Where? Get rowdy in chat and you’ll simply get banned. :rolleyes: :eek:

[AdamHeard]

You love the concept of the show yet you complain it’s a bunch of uninformed morons voting. Sounds to me like you don’t like the concept at all. It’s one of the biggest problems with democracy, the uninformed are equal to the informed.

Disclaimer — I agree which is why I don’t even pay much attention to where I rank/don’t rank.

I like the concept of a top 25 show. I disagree with how the top25 are ranked. Not sure where the confusion lies.

You’re also putting words in my mouth; uninformed does not imply morons.

[Andrew_Schreiber]

I like the concept of a top 25 show. I disagree with how the top25 are ranked. Not sure where the confusion lies.

You’re also putting words in my mouth; uninformed does not imply morons.

You’re right, I added the words morons because I was thinking it. My apologies. I’ll edit the post.

So you like he idea of a Top25 but not the idea of the uninformed voting on it. How would you suggest ranking them? Numeric methods probably won’t work due to differences in regional strengths. Finding a group of “informed” won’t work since there’s no real defined qualification.

[AdamHeard]

You’re right, I added the words morons because I was thinking it. My apologies. I’ll edit the post.

So you like he idea of a Top25 but not the idea of the uninformed voting on it. How would you suggest ranking them? Numeric methods probably won’t work due to differences in regional strengths. Finding a group of “informed” won’t work since there’s no real defined qualification.

In 2011 a coaches poll was run side by side with the public poll. I forget who all the coaches were, but this concept worked and both top 25’s were displayed.

It’d also be awesome to implement a pure statistical top25 w/ FIM style points that are standardized to cover different # of matches played.

If a public, coach, and statistical ranking were done, a combined ranking of the three could also be done.

[Andrew_Schreiber]

In 2011 a coaches poll was run side by side with the public poll. I forget who all the coaches were, but this concept worked and both top 25’s were displayed.

It’d also be awesome to implement a pure statistical top25 w/ FIM style points that are standardized to cover different # of matches played.

If a public, coach, and statistical ranking were done, a combined ranking of the three could also be done.

Tell ya what, let’s make that happen.

Mike/Justin, any chance you could contact the folks you had doing the voting in 2011 and collect lists from them? (or pass the list my way and I’ll do it)

I’ll have the TwentyFour guys work up a FiM style point list, an OPR, and a CCWM list. (Yes Drost, that means you too)

Let’s see how they all come out, I’m curious.

[JohnSchneider]

In 2011 a coaches poll was run side by side with the public poll. I forget who all the coaches were, but this concept worked and both top 25’s were displayed.

It’d also be awesome to implement a pure statistical top25 w/ FIM style points that are standardized to cover different # of matches played.

If a public, coach, and statistical ranking were done, a combined ranking of the three could also be done.

In CFB they just take the ranking from the three systems and average it then use that as your rank.

With the coaches poll in CFB they try to get a wide sampling of coaches from different parts of the country, different skill levels, different play styles etc to get a good sample. This is probably best for FRC too because a lot of coaches don’t have enough time to watch every team in every region, but they will tend to chart their own region well and you’ll get a relative comparison with more well known teams

The data portion seems pretty easy to do with the provided twitter data and someone entering awards.

[Patrick_Flynn]

I did vote… In the coaches poll… and that was cancelled.
I love the concept of the show, my fault is with the voting process. Even if everyone informed votes, they will be drowned out tenfold by the rest of chiefdelphi. This was very evident in the 2011 rankings comparing the public vs. coaches poll.

You didn’t vote this week which in turn gives you no right to complain about how the votes turned out this week. That is like complaining that we picked the wrong president but you didn’t vote. If you give up your right/ ability to vote you also give up your right to complain about it.

The problem with the coaches polls are that these “experts” can’t be experts every week some weeks their competing other weeks their working at their own jobs. Its just as hard for them to see all the teams compete as it is anyone else. Many times the coaches polls were skewed based on what regional they were at and what teams they saw play.

Somehow, I don’t see this making the rankings more insightful. For the same reasons we hold Looking Forward posts and the like above normal chatter.

This wouldn’t make them more insight full never has the claim been made that these top 25 should top your pick list. Its just a voter generated list of some teams that are playing this years game really really good. If you have some time to look at these teams we could all learn something from them.

More voters would help to balance out the regional bias. If we currently have 70% of the votes coming for the east coast, more overall voters would result in more people from the west coast or any other region. This would help to remove these “favorite” regions. Everyone is mentioning these “regional bias” but most people are failing to mention that Texas has the second most teams in the Top 25, and there are no NE teams.

Ranking teams based on performance numbers is easy to do, it takes some work to general all the necessary data but after that all you have to do is sort the teams. The point of the show is for fun, its just a fun ranking that isn’t just a set of numbers read off a spreadsheet. Sure we could use OPR but i think everyone would agree that if we had done this last year the Top25 would have been really skewed.