Since no one seems to want to debate this, I assume that’s all the ideas there are. so we have:
You have 14 days. Votes are public.
why are people Voting for unreal? do they want to donate all the $ to use it?
Tytus, the question asked what engine SHOULD be used. It says nothing about what WILL be used or the practicality of getting any such graphics engine.
the unreal engine is FREE!!! i mean… it comes down to wethere we want to make our own game and make it seperate, or just use the unreal engine and make a MOD for ut2k4… (i have seen a golf sim mod for ut2k4, so n e thing is possible) =D
I don’t have the money for unreal and like open source and think I prefer crystal space. It seems like the best option without shelling out dough. And it can be made so many people, not just thoughs with UT, can take advantage of the game. Just reading opinion this seems to be the path that those actually going to do a lot a work for this project want to go. Not just making a good hack of UT but actually building something. I think crystal space looks like a good building block.
Which unreal engine is this? The totally first one???
I have no clue so i think i am going to stay out of this one. LOL
no… i would persume the 2k4 engine w/ the unreal2.5 engine… BUT… we COUld use UT99, IF it has an Unreal Editor with it… but then it wouldnt be as modern and we wouldnt be able to use high poly count objects =/
If you guys are really serious about this–and that means that you want to mess with the engine, rather than just making mods (which is fine too!)–Descent and Quake II (or was it Quake I?) were open-sourced, if I remember correctly. Descent is missing some proprietary sound driver code, but other than that, is complete (and runs under DOS or an emulator). Quake, I’m not sure.
But really, a modern engine like Unreal, with a well-developed modding community is probably a better choice, if it can be used without cost. You will have to consider people losing interest in the project (it always happens with mods), and will have to evaluate the technical aspects of what you want to do versus not only your abilities, but also the capabilities of the modding layer of the engine. (What do I mean? You can’t mod Warcraft II into Splinter Cell–though for your purposes, a 3-D shooter engine should serve nicely).
Consider which engines or games can be used to approximate real-world physics. Unreal Tournament isn’t so great out of the box, but Raven Shield (an Unreal-based game) has rather good physics.
Also consider that these open-source engines, which may not have actually been used in any products on the market, are (by and large) unsupported and unproven. Will they work? Hopefully/probably. Does Unreal (for example) work? Yes. (And can you afford to buy the source code? No. Would they even sell it to you? Probably not.)
But take a good hard look at the potential for people to back out of the project. If the only person who can handle the advanced C++ and DirectX (or whatever you’re coding for) needed for a full-fledged game engine quits out of frustration (or petty bickering, or illness, or school, or life in general), what happens? You need to make sure that the project depends on no one person, or that every person will absolutely refuse to quit (which is unlikely, at best). Wouldn’t it be a safer bet to mod a game, where there is comparatively little skill required, and where tasks can be assigned to just about anyone? (You probably shouldn’t assume that someone who just completed AP Comp. Sci. is able to write–or even read–code to support DirectX, but maybe they’ll know enough to adjust parameters in data files, or learn other skills from modding tutorials.)
In short, don’t get in over your heads, and you’ll be fine. (And if you still want to go ahead with tweaking the game engine itself, just keep these observations in mind.)
P.S. The link to Crystal needs an extra “e” in “sourceforge”…
I’m still all for Crystal. I get what you’re saying, but I’ve already stated my feeling about using less than open-source code… 
Follow the links. The Unreal engine is just the engine; they license it to various groups. (The current version is 2) The prices posted are the normal ones, no special offers.
And if we just mod UT2k4, the cost would be to buy UT2k4 for everyone. Not real cheap, either.
One other thing: There is no sponsor. Anything that we buy is going to have to come out of our pockets. And I don’t think that Epic licenses to private people, just corporations.
Remember that, even if you aren’t part of the team that works on this…
It really isn’t that expensive, and you do get a perfectly good game out of it. (I have of course been referring to modding–it’s obvious that you can’t afford to buy the code for the engine, sponsor or no sponsor.)
Doing so means that you have a engine that is known to work properly. If you use something else, there is a higher probability of something beyond your control going wrong. What guarantees that it will be fixed in a timely fashion, so as not to inconvienience you greatly? And why not make use of the Unreal modding community? That’s arguably better than getting an SDK and reading the documentation, and fighting with low-level code, but still ending up with a product that’s based on a sub-par or dated backend.
If the price is such a big deal, why not use the old Unreal Tournament? It’s exceptionally efficient, very scalable, runs on anything (of consequence), and is “known good”. The techniques to mod it (note–once again, I doubt it’s worth it to even think of buying the code!) are established and widely available.
Whatever you do, don’t paint yourselves into a corner by choosing an engine for which you will be debugging errors totally unrelated to your project–let someone else do that for you! (Open source is ideologically nice, but do you have the time and energy to bugtest someone else’s work in progress, while you simultaneously try to develop an implementation of the same thing, using ever-changing builds, and without a guarantee of stability? It’s a crapshoot.)
One other thing about open source (or any source, really): once you do see the code, will you know what to do with it? Not to put too fine a point on it, but that’s not exactly easy stuff to interpret, especially the first time around. If you have real expertise (high school comp. sci. probably doesn’t constitute expertise), or are willing to invest significant time to learn, then it may be reasonable; but if you want to work on a FIRST video game, and not spend your (not-unlimited) time learning the nuances of a particular engine, the best route is still modding someone else’s work.
It’s a matter of perspective–what do you really want? To learn 3-D game design/implementation, or to produce a FIRST game? They aren’t mutually exclusive, but neither are they the same thing. Another thing: if you’re recruiting volunteers, make sure they know in advance your answer to this question–if they assume that you’re going to have a game within a certain time period, and find that you, the leaders, are still tinkering with the intricacies of the engine when you “ought to be” working on the game itself, they may just quit out of disillusionment.
I never said it would be easy, but considering that I don’t have Unreal in any form, I am going to say no to it.
There is also the fact that it would be a mod, not it’s own program.
If we would to break Unreal somehow, all we can do is hope it’s fixable. If we break CS, we can modify the source if need be.
Running unreal would be cool, but the strings atached would make it almost not worth it. Using the Unreal engine would be no more dificult than using an open source engine.
And if we spend any money, a huge infrastructure may need to be set up. I certainly don’t have a whole lot of cash.
The point is, you can’t break Unreal, without tampering with source code that you don’t have. If you’re confident in Crystal Space, that’s not a problem, but be aware that modifying source is what can lead to the most trouble. If you’re up to it, and keep backups of every build (so you don’t lose as much time hunting down erroneous changes and subtle bugs), you end up with a more flexible and arguably more effective platform. If you’re lazy, or lack the resources to be methodical about source control, or any number of disadvantageous situations pop up, you’re in for a pile of painful debugging. Also, if someone else’s bug is the problem, are you sure that you can fix it? Are you sure that they can fix it (in the near future, without invalidating your code)?
With an open-source engine, you’re not coding for a mature platform–you’re coding for something that’s in development. That’s a lot harder than modding a well-known, well-documented, versatile, and stable game.
It isn’t expensive to buy Unreal Tournament ($20 CAD in the old games section), nor is it particularly expensive to buy Unreal Tournament 2004 ($60 CAD). Not free, but not all that much cash either. It is not a huge infrastructure. (To reiterate: you can’t buy a copy of the source without a corporation and suitcases full of money. So it’s irrelevant!)
Yes it would be a mod, so no, you couldn’t sell it. (Were you planning to sell it? Who would buy it? There aren’t that many FIRST people, you know, say 30 000, most of whom will not buy anything of the sort. And if you intend to convince the public to buy it, that’s excellent in that it provides exposure for FIRST and for you, not to mention money; but are you sure that you can pull it off? Maybe that’s just a wild extrapolation, though; disregard it, if you had no such intentions.) More to the point, what fundamental objections do you have to modding a game?
So what’s the problem? To which strings are you referring? You’re implying a similar level of difficulty, so either you’re intending a (relatively simple) mod for Crystal, or you’re making minimal changes to its code. (In other words, why do you need/want the source code?)
Or is it that you really want to use SourceForge, but can’t justify it if it’s a commercial game engine? I hope it isn’t something as miniscule as that.
We’re still not really clear on one thing: are you focused on getting a “product” (saleable or not) out in the world, or are you concentrating on developing your own skills? I’d tend to agree that the more challenging option (Crystal Space) is better for skill development, but that as a practical matter, you’re more likely to end up with something substantial to show for your efforts if you mod Unreal (or the like).
And like I said before, since you’re promoting this project vigourously, and recruiting help, people are going to be disappointed if you find Crystal Space to be too difficult, or too limited, or otherwise unsuitable. By opening this up to the world, you’re now bound by their expectations, at least to some degree.
All that said, give it your best shot–who knows what will come of your decisions, but at least you’ll have learned something…
Selling it as a product has crossed my mind, but it is ok by the CS license. My own skill developement has not crossed my mind yet.
The unreal engine has a whole host of legal issues involved. Also, a ‘mod’ is considered significantly less than ‘game’. (Which would you rather tell your friends? “I helped make the FIRST Video Game.” “I helped make the FIRST Unreal Mod.”)
I excpect that the diference of dificulty between Unreal and CS APIs are slim to none. CS has many of the Features that we need. While using Unreal would produce ultra-realistic scenes, there are 2 things that should be remembered: 1. that it can only do this on the best macines; 2. that it can only make it as good as the models.
Like I said earlier, if anyone can convince them to let the FIRST community is it for this dirt cheap, I will be more than happy to use it. but until then, I know I will not support it.
What advantage does CS have over Quake II?
“Total conversion” mods can be quite extensive–look at some of the Unreal variants out there, or at the variety of things that have been done with Quake. Also, as for the legality, one must consider that Epic provides an editor with their software. That could constitute some sort of implied consent; at the very least, it’s clear that they won’t sue you if you don’t sell it.
In any case, I’ve got to point out that some of this sounds suspiciously like an issue of pride (which is fine, understandable and all that), but which also means that if you fail to make it work, the consequences w/r/t your pride may be more significant, because of higher expectations.
True enough, but do you need API support beyond whatever scripting is provided in the Unreal editors? If this is truly so, then perhaps you’re right about Crystal.
By choosing Crystal, you do have access to a reasonably complete feature set (to which you referred); you don’t, however, have the assurance that the engine is stable and bug-free. With Unreal, you have a very large support community, and a proven technology, but are limited in what you can do to the actual code.
As I understand it, you want to make a 3-D simulation of a field/stadium, and populate it with robots and objects. Couldn’t this be accomplished with an Unreal map mod, several new bots, a few objects like balls or goals, and an adjusted set of physics parameters? I still don’t see exactly what you need to get into the source code for. If it’s not the learning experience that is primarily driving you, why not take the slightly more straightforward route? Also consider that you can test models, game dynamics and all sorts of other issues in Unreal, then (if the Crystal feature set is to be believed), you should be able to port it to native Crystal, if things work out. It’s like rapid application development…
Also, things like announcers aren’t as simple as they appear. In the other thread, D.J. Fluck accused the EA Sports announcers of being stilted and unimaginative in their phrasing. This is true–but not for lack of trying (EA has tried play-by play since at least 1997, and it still isn’t perfected.) There are hundreds of different phrases and names in NHL 2003 (for example); they have to be accessed on a moment’s notice, and played in some coherent order. When Kaberle receives the puck, it doesn’t help for the announcer to still be talking about Sundin–and if Kaberle holds onto the puck, the announcer can’t just sit silently and say nothing. On the other hand, the implementation of play by play might be more than an Unreal mod can handle–so this could be a backhanded vote of confidence for Crystal (just brace yourselves for a vast library of sounds that can be pulled up instantly, and an algorithm to tie them together in coherent patterns).
Creating the game from raw source code is clearly the more significant achievement, but without having a true measure of everyone’s committment to this project, I can’t help but wonder if you are biting off more than you can chew. I don’t by any means consider the use of Crystal to be impossible, only difficult. So as project leaders, it is upon you to know your (and your associates’) capabilities, and choose the course of action that benefits the project the most. (If you haven’t already come to some conclusions about each other’s abilities and potential for improvement, now is the time for an honest discussion. Leave pride out of it for now.)
It’s not a matter of biting off more than one can chew; it’s eating it in managable pieces.
When I created this thread, my intent was the Unreal 2 engine. Meaning: If you go to the link in the first post, the actual Unreal engine that Epic licenses to other parties. My intention was NOT to use the UT and just mod it.
The people involved in this have a variety of abilities, which should allow us to do this. For instance, Astronouth is relatively new to C++, while have known it for years. On the other had, I’m not the greatest with graphics programming, … etc. A single one of us might not be able to do it on our own, but it we work together, we can do this. 