This year has seen so many yellow and red cards, that much of stigma seems to be gone. In one match the opposing alliance blockaded the feeder station with one of our robots trapped inside. They were called on it, they all received yellow cards (one team already had one and received a red card), but we still lost the match largely due to the violation and two of the three teams were rewarded with 2 match points for breaking the rules.
Seems the penalty does not have enough teeth at least in this year’s game context. It would be a viable strategy in finals if your alliance has no yellow cards and is ahead by either scoring rotors faster or autonomous performance to shutdown the game.
From section 10.7, the last paragraph on page 116:
During the Playoff MATCHES, if a Team receives a YELLOW or RED CARD, it results in the entire ALLIANCE receiving the YELLOW or RED CARD for that MATCH. If two different Teams on the same ALLIANCE are issued YELLOW CARDS, the entire ALLIANCE is issued a RED CARD. A RED CARD results in zero (0) points for that MATCH, and the ALLIANCE loses the MATCH. If both ALLIANCES receive RED CARDS, the ALLIANCE which committed the action earning the RED CARD first chronologically loses the MATCH.
Emphasis mine. The G10 penalty is stated as “Violation: YELLOW CARD for the ALLIANCE.” Does that mean in the playoffs the alliance gets a yellow card, or that every team in the alliance gets a yellow card, resulting in a red card for the alliance?
It’s also worth pointing out that, if this is a “valid” strategy, it only works once. You still need to be able to win a second match against that alliance.
Thanks I did not realize that a blockade call is effectively a red card in elims. That make me feel better.
We were in the minority being a robot at FIM Ann Arbor that did not get a yellow card, and I feel like the stigma is completely gone. That said no one want to get a card and I do not see anyone considering this strategy in quals (except for possibly your last qual match?)
In that instance there were two separate yellow cards. One team got a yellow card for H02, and another team got a yellow card (and a tech foul) for G27.
The high score is 495 points, with 10 tech fouls for a robot disabled in the retrieval zone. This is a nightmare for the refs as well, and possibly worth mentioning in this thread.
It always bothered me as a driver at what point is it un-GP to keep bumping into a robot that’s disabled in a protected zone. There is very little you can do in a few seconds that will give you more uncontested points than constantly drawing protected zone fouls. If a robot is disabled for the entire match, you can draw hundreds for theoretically thousands of points. At what point does it become un-GP to sit there and rack up the points?
I forget the exact rule. But, there’s something about forcing the penalty.
If you’re sitting there bumping them to draw the penalty and making no attempt to play the game, I’d hope most refs would know well enough to call it correctly.
Also, noting the yellow cards came from two different rule infractions is relatively meaningless. The point is two yellow cards escalate into a red card during playoffs. If two separate teams get yellow cards for the same, or different, infractions they still have acquired two yellow cards. As the match was scored during quals as each team getting a yellow card, that easily translates to playoffs as three yellow cards to the alliance. Unless you believe the refs would call it differently, it isn’t worth noting.
If you are playing to win it is not un-GP. You’re goal is to win. Never sacrifice a win for concerns over GP. Now I’m not saying intentionally breaking another teams robot during a match is GP but you get the point.
Gracious professionals learn and compete like crazy, but treat one another with respect and kindness in the process. They avoid treating anyone like losers. No chest thumping tough talk, but no sticky-sweet platitudes either. Knowledge, competition, and empathy are comfortably blended.
I tell our drivers that if you go for the bump, make sure it looks like you have a valid reason for bumping the robot (bump them while getting to the Retrieval Zone to get a gear).
Not much different from last year where you would bump the disabled robot before going for the capture. Sometimes robot went out of their way to bump the disabled robot.
This happened to us in a qualifying match on Saturday at the St. Louis regional as well. 2 Blue robots blocked access to the loading station on the station side and the third patrolled the boiler side, and kept us out of the retrieval area for over half the match. They all received yellow cards, and one was DQ’d as a result, but they still were awarded the victory and 2 RP (except for the DQ team).
Personally, I take it as a bit of a badge of honor that they blockaded us (we were not exactly a threat this past weekend…), but it does seem a bit odd to me that an entire alliance can receive a yellow card but the opposing alliance receives no penalty points.* Should a yellow card offense be an automatic tech foul? Some things that earn you a card, such as going on the field before green lights, do not impact the game, and some things like sticking your hand out of the airship, are safety issues (I guess? no robot can contact you at that height…), but it seems like something that affects match play should also receive a foul.
*I’m not complaining that we lost the match. We probably would have lost anyway. Just posing the question and interested in the discussion.
As a team that was on the receiving end of the “we’re dead in the opposing retrieval zone” in eliminations (WPI SF1-1 for the record), we lost the match with 100 penalty points scored for the other alliance, but the other alliance received a yellow card. To my understanding and re-watching, the other alliance very intentionally kept bumping us whenever they could. Eventually, having omni-wheels, we were clear of the retrieval zone, but a team on the opposing alliance pushed us back into the retrieval zone. My understanding is that the repeated obvious nature of just bumping us for the techs led to the yellow, but strictly pushing us back into the retrieval zone just to get them I think is what sealed the deal on the yellow.
I think I agree with your last sentence. So if your robot was not trying to enter the zone, but was pushed in, then a yellow card for the pusher and no penalty against the one being pushed. (rule C08)
In our first semifinal match in Greater Boston we were shoved 15 feet into the opposing loading zone and held there for several seconds. The foul was called on us. It was clearly done intentionally but the refs were probably looking elsewhere.
Certainly not, not inherently. Just the act of pushing an opponent into your retrieval zone isn’t necessarily a “strateg[y] aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule”. If, for instance, the opposing robot is stopped outside your retrieval zone trying to keep you from entering it and getting a gear, pushing them in is simply an offensive strategy by you to get a gear. Cases like this are very difficult and must be interpreted by referees. The foul can be on the defender for putting themselves in the position to be pushed in playing defense.
These penalties can even be received after a robot is disabled if the robot is perceived as legitimately in the way. In the case you’re quoting, it was likely the obvious intent to get foul points by repositioning them again that became the issue.