G404 and Ball Entropy @ CVR QF2-1

Full disclosure, my team, 3512, was part of the red alliance.

During CVR 2-1 the red alliance gets 20 penalty points assessed against them and a warning from the refs about hoarding balls (G404). Here’s the relavent rule:

We believe the Blue Box part B was called against us.

Here’s the match replay.

After watching the match back over, I see 3 instances where red robots cause blue balls to enter the red Hangar, all accidental:

  • 1:39 3598 goes for an early climb, runs into the hangar truss and hits a blue ball which rolls into the hangar area.

  • 1:47 3512 goes to intake a red ball in front of the hangar, intakes a red and a blue, spits both out. The blue ball is on the left and rolls into the hangar, the red is on the right and rolls into the truss causing it to not roll into the hangar.

  • 2:20 3512 goes to climb, backs up into a bouncing blue ball that 3522 (blue alliance) just shot and missed, causing it to roll into the hangar.

Am I crazy here, or did we just get screwed here due to ball entropy? And what if we tried to the clear those balls first by intaking them, wouldn’t that not cause G404 Blue Box Part A to come into effect?


I’m kind of afraid so.

At 50 seconds left in the match, when the red robot started climbing, there’s a pretty good argument for G404 (box B), as you figure. (They didn’t fully hit the bar and lift for another 20 seconds or so…) And that timing just about lines up with the number of tech fouls.

Now, how to deal with it, for those that find themselves in this situation:

  1. Don’t climb early. Might not be possible for some robots.
  2. Use a ground clear–don’t intake-spit, get in there and try to use the drivetrain to knock them bouncing around and out. If you do intake then spit, get to the back ones first if you can so you’re not trapping more.
  3. Let your opponents in! (Not saying you guys didn’t–they had plenty of shots to get in there–but as a general thing there’s all kinds of trouble you can get into with opposing Cargo trapped in a zone.)
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Needing the presence of mind to clear those balls to prevent G404 B, but to not intake them will doing so to prevent G404 A during a match is tough.

Good luck teams!


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You don’t say… these things are as bad as cats to herd.

100 just about should have gotten the same, but a red robot put the third red ball into the blue hangar and the fourth didn’t quite get in, so that’s a lot harder to argue (not least because G201 could be argued). One more random red in the blue hangar and there would have been one interesting ref discussion, probably with penalties to both sides.

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My team was eliminated yesterday for violating the same rule. To my understanding even if the opposing alliance deliberately places their cargo into the hanger zone you would either need to wait until the last 30 seconds or find a way to get them out before climbing.

Dang, that sucks, Nick. Especially when I see plenty of intentional match strategies at other events focused on putting many opponent balls in the hangar zone with no penalties.

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You can call it “ball entropy” but I think the fact remains that if you are climbing early you are creating a no-go zone on the field. Creating a no-go zone on the field with 4+ opposing cargo in it will (SHOULD) get called every time. If it isn’t, I think that’s (currently) a problem with inconsistent reffing, not the game rules.


Looks like LA Final 1 had a series of G404 calls but I didn’t see if it was ball entropy or strategy. It’s an interesting dilema for alliances with slow climbs that need to go before the last 30 seconds.

Someone put the video up in another thread–the first 2-3 were entropy. #4 was a bumper shot by a blue alliance robot. Accidental, probably. But still, off the bumpers and straight into the blue Hangar.

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