Gears on the floor?

FIRST General Forum
#49

There is a LOT of conjecture in this thread, and no one has provided photos or other evidence from experiments at the human feeder station. I won’t provide ours, but rather, encourage teams to do MANY of their own with every game piece that can come out of the station. 2013 “kind of” applies, but there was only 1 type of game piece so it was easy to prevent. Same with 2015, unless your human players made huge mistakes.

Also, like usual, the team field drawings are missing a critical component that mimics the real field: the wall goes straight down from the feeder station. There is no recess. This is important for your experiments.

There will be a lot of miscommunication between a drive team and the human player that is 50 feet away, behind 1-2 airships, and also has 2 panes of semi-reflective plexiglass between them. Gears will fall on the ground.

If you want to be an all-around bot that mimics the Ri3D teams’ gear intakes, then don’t do the experiments and don’t worry about gears on the ground. It is likely the (apparently exceedingly rare) great gear bots will form an alliance without you.

#50

That’s true, but that’s pretty well solved with a camera and driver practice.

The gear active intake as a whole really comes down to an individual team’s strategy. Having an active gear intake + having a decent shooter/hopper system/climber with a potential ball intake on that makes the space allowable within the volume limits difficult. A Ri3D style gear intake is smaller than most active gear intakes and allows much more space on the robot if a team’s plans are to do multiple objects.

Just things to think about when planning your own team’s strategy.

#51

What do you mean? Can you achieve that without a pick up system?

#52

Camera will be effectively used on ~10% of robots. Drive practice, maybe 20%.

#53

2017 has had a weird start for me, so maybe I’m just seeing things differently. This year, above all other years, is not the year to do both primary scoring objectives for 99% of teams.

I can’t understand why any team would risk not getting bonuses, or why they would presume that its ever a guarantee an average alliance of 3 gear bots can pull it off. Conditions on the field will be chaotic by mid-match.

Sure, active intake from the ground is optional. But the Ri3D intakes from the feeder are grossly inadequate for all but the earliest levels of play.

#54

One way I can think of is to find a way for partners to dump their gear into your very-forgiving non-ground pickup. Yet it would take getting your partners to play along with both a simple dumping mechanism and custom autonomous code.

Maybe there are more ways to do it. In any event it’s a bit of inter-robot complexity for a net gain of 20 points.

#55

1 gear plus 60 fuel = 120 points and doesn’t count on picking up two gears (one at a time) and delivering them with enough time for the pilot to do their job.

There might be five teams in the world that can accomplish this, but by my estimate that’s about 5.03 times as many teams as can accomplish a 3-gear auton.

#56

In that case why wouldn’t you just have both the robots just place a gear on the lift themselves? 65 points X 2. Theoretically all three robots could do it.

#57

Multiple robots placing a gear on the peg in auton isn’t easy. For dead reckoning, there is approximately +/- 0.75" of margin of error left/right after a robot drives. One team only has to drive 4 feet. The other two teams have to drive approximately 6-8 feet and also possibly turn.

You may say ‘just use vision’, but it is rarely that simple.

I predict that multiple gears in auton will be as rare as any tower-scoring autons were in 2016. In some regions of the country it will be more common than others - but compared to 2014 and prior autonomous routines it will be very rare.

#58

Yeah, I agree, but I think that would be far more likely than the “I’ll place one gear and then you pass me another one and I’ll place that one too” scenario that was described above.

It is a fun and clever thought experiment: set up your robot such that in auto it situates itself on the field adjacent to the airship and presents a peg to another robot that thinks it is placing its gear on the center peg.

The more productive goal will likely be: place the gear, run to a hopper, dump it, shoot high goals until time runs out.

#59

I get it. Was just thinking about how a team could ‘solo’ 120 auto gear points though. The peg->hopper->vomit-balls-and-pray route seems a little far-fetched because of how long the actions could take (including time of flight - you can’t just line-drive into the high goal like prior years). If there were 1 partner that could place on a side lift, and a team had a method to sense gears on the ground, then a 2-bot/3-gear auton seems more plausible.

#60

Here’s my opinion on floor pickup for gears: At many events, there is going to be sub-par gear robots that are going to drop gears. Depending on how much this happens, you could easily loose a match to not being able to pick up dropped gears. If you are a robot focusing on gears, it’s a safe assumption that you are trying to be one of the best gear robots at the event and probably want to seed high. To do this, you are going to need a floor intake to make sure you can score a consistent amount of gears and not rely on alliance partners if they malfunction or just can’t handle the gears reliably.

#61

Many robots will only be capable of intaking from the floor. I don’t see a drastic reason why not. I guess it’s a little awkward near the retrieval zone, but I think it could do.

#62

With floor pickup you save time…no need to line up at retrival station

#63

Yes, provided your floor pickup is “touch it, own it”.

There will be a number of floor pickups that will work slowly or require enough precision that it will essentially be no different than human loading, but determined teams who really work out the details of a good concept will have a much easier time.

#64

You still have to line up with the gear. Once the gear falls out of the loading station it becomes an unknown entity. It could roll into the airship and get stuck in a corner or your alliance partner could drive over it while waiting for fuel. The loading station is consistent and easier to practice for. With the new rules minimizing frame extensions it’s much easier to build for too. There are countless examples of loading station only robots that were Einstein competitive even when game pieces were far more abundant and distributed throughout the field.

#65

You want to be able to pick up gears from the floor, because the gear will move side to side in the chute, and if you are near your airship and a defensive robot hits you and forces you to drop the gear you have to go all the way across the field again and back for 1 gear.

#66

A good gear robot will only be scoring 4-6 gears a match, dropping just one gear a match is a huge deal ground intake or not. If your dropping so many gears that you need a ground intake just to pick them up again then maybe you should consider re-examining your priorities.

#67

I’d say 7 a match is the target for “Top good gear” bot, pretty uncertain how many of these so-called good gear bots will exist. So many variables, sight and defense plus messy floor. Not like past games many other factors including Human ones.

Seems to me defense versus good gear bot would be pretty easy for many bots to do effectively, at either end as both require contact and certain precision not to mention** travel time** and knowing the scoring targets exactly a peg. Going to be interesting I think it’ll be rare indeed to see 7 gears placed by any single bot more like 4 max per bot with average gear bots doing 2. At least in weeks 1-3.

I expect allinces early to try to limit other alliance scoring more than scoring themselves, try to win with "no defense safe times " using auto and climbing as the point earning mainly,later scoring will come into play as teams figure it out.

its an intersting game strategy wise with all the variables.

#68

I think that a lone gear blocking access to a lift may prevent scoring on that lift. Robots with a gear loaded will not be allowed to move/bulldoze (G27) the blocking gear. If there are no active gear manipulators, that lift could be difficult to access. Especially if a non-gear-laden robot fails to clear the gear by bulldozing.

Would littering the opponent lifts with blocking gears be a potential defensive move?