GM and its impact on FIRST

FIRST General Forum
#41

The subject of GM product came up (and seems to come up with every discussion of GM’s woes). Of note:

-For all the talk about low-mileage trucks and SUVs, there are always going to be people that actually need the capabilities of a truck or SUV. No administration is going to restrict them out of existence. (For those keeping score, GM currently has the lead on full-size truck fuel economy with the Silverado/Sierra Hybrid at 21/22 city/highway. Excluding hybrids, Ford and GM are currently tied for the lead at 15/21 to Dodge’s 14/20 and Toyota’s 15/19.)

-I’ve driven plenty of early-decade GM models at work. Their modern counterparts are universally more refined, more powerful, more efficient vehicles–vehicles designed (if not manufactured) before GM started to accept government loans. Keep that in mind.

Last week, I signed the papers to buy a gently-used 2009 Pontiac Vibe. I bought it because it had the features I wanted (huge room, better fuel economy than my CR-V, good feel on the road, decently equipped) at a price I was willing to pay (albeit one assisted by an employee discount). I picked up on the Vibe after driving several at work, along with hundreds of other cars from just about every volume manufacturer. If car buyers did their homework–talking to owners, reading reviews, taking test drives, weighing their options–then I think the issue of GM’s support of FIRST would work itself out. It might shrink relative to years past, it might grow. We should know well before Kickoff.

#42

What the impact of GM’s bankruptcy on FIRST?

Well, it is pretty apparent FIRST cannot continue to operate at its current rate for much longer. As an organization deeply rooted in corporate dependencies, FIRST cannot ignore the actions of its (and its teams) benefactors. Thousands of dollars per event is simply too much.

I’ve heard nothing but praise for the 2009 Michigan district event model. The continuation and spread of this seems like a piece of puzzle for FIRST’s sustainability.

#43

It really bothers me when people are convinced that they know “facts” when they are not true. For example, your “Major win” in efficiency is flat out wrong. In comparable models, the Subaru Legacy fuel economy rating was 20/26 MPG city/highway while the Chevy Malibu/Pontiac G6 is 22/30.

As far as reliability goes, the MSN reliability rating for the Subaru was 8.3 while the Malibu got a 7.9. The rating from Edmunds had the Subaru at 7.3 with the Malibu at 7.5. I would say no statistically significant advantage.

What bothers me about this whole deal is that so many people are spouting “facts” that aren’t true that people are starting to believe them. I heard an interview with someone the other day that said, “the reason I bought a VW is because they just have better fuel economy than American cars.” CHECK THE FACTS: THAT IS NOT TRUE. As a company average, that is true simply because VW doesn’t make trucks. Compare models in the same class and most of the American cars are better than VW for fuel economy (still using midsize cars, the Passat 2.0L 4 cyl gets 19/29 - less than the Malibu/G6 mentioned above which has a 2.4L 4 cyl).

I just don’t understand how the buying public gets duped into thinking these things without checking the facts and doing any research.

By the way, feel free to check the numbers yourself at: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byclass.htm

#44

From experience I can tell you that it’s because it’s quicker and easier to just believe what people tell you than to look it up for yourself.

And with GM shrinking from the picture a little that model likely won’t go anywhere. We were told that one of the advantages of the state competition model is that the competitions are significantly cheaper than the regional that our team used to participate in. With a lot of teams funding drying up with GM’s chapter 11 bankruptcy the FIRST in Michigan people wouldn’t return to a more expensive system when it would mean that potentially massive numbers of teams couldn’t compete.

#45

I hear ya man. In general the public is lazy, doesn’t confirm/double check resources, doesn’t bother to understand what statistics are really reporting, and tends to believe what they want to believe based on preconceived notions and internalized bias.

In a culture that all too often gets annoyed when it can’t stop at a convenience store for fuel, custom order a deli sandwich, pour a coffee to individual taste, pay for it all, and be on the road inside of five minutes it would seem we’ve gotten far better at “spouting off” than we have at really taking the time to do our homework.

#46

Are you suggesting that GM’s sponsorship is the primary reason for the district competition model to exist? I can’t quite figure out what you’re trying to say here. For Dean’s vision of explosive growth in FRC to be possible, we’re definitely going to need a lot more competition events, and I’d say spreading the district idea to additional regions is the only concept likely to work right now. There’s a lot of logistical headache involved in figuring out what districts would be reasonable, of course.

#47

Alan,
I do not draw the conclusion you got at all from Mr. Pockets. I don’t see how you got to his suggestion that GM funding drying up is THE PRIMARY reason for FIM. I think a lot of people are in agreement that the district model would benefit FIRST and FIRSTs individual teams greatly. Like you said though, there are a lot of logistical headaches involved in figuring out which “districts” will come to fruition.

Brando

#48

And with GM shrinking from the picture a little [the Michigan district] model likely won’t go anywhere.

This is the part that implies that the success of GM is intertwined with the success of the District model.

#49

well i would say it IS intertwined in some way shape or form…however i don’t get from that statement “the rebuild of GM is the reason that FIM will continue.” I think a lot of people view FIM as a very succesful program and the future of FIRST.

#50

I didn’t mean to make it so confusing. My point was that a very large number of Michigan teams got money from GM. They will no longer be getting, or at least not be getting as much money from GM as a result of their chapter 11 bankruptcy. As a result a great number of teams in Michigan will likely be stretched for cash in the coming year while they adapt to the change.

The FIM setup reduced the cost of events for the teams in Michigan. For example, with district events normally only an hour or two away teams save immense amounts of money on travel, lodging (or more correctly not needing lodging).

Without GM funding a good number of teams will not have as much money as they are accustomed to. In such a condition it would make no sense for them to discontinue the district system. The district system saved the teams involved a lot of money and it wouldn’t be logical of them to cancel that in a time when a lot of teams will be short on cash. It wouldn’t be good timing at all.

I didn’t mean to imply that GM was the driving force behind FIM. I only meant that their departure would make it a bad time to stop the district system (and I’m not implying that it should be stopped at all, I think that it was a success as well).

Hopefully I didn’t slaughter that point too :slight_smile:

#51

You raise a good point but as far as we know GM has not come out and said they will no longer be supporting this program. Delphi continues to sponsor many teams and support this program despite having been in Chapter 11 for the last several years. I have not seen any reports from FIRST or GM that they would be discontinuing (or even cutting back) support for teams. (If I am mistaken someone please correct me, as always)

#52

I didn’t realize that. The impression that I got from our team meetings was that we would no longer be getting money from GM. I may have misinterpreted that information however. If that is the case then my point is kind of null and void.

#53

Hardly null and void, teams SHOULD diversify their funding sources and look for places to trim fat, this is just good management.

#54

Oh! I think I misread your point completely the first time. You said the model “won’t go anywhere.” That can describe two totally different things. I read it as meaning it was a failed experiment and will not be used again (because it depends on GM’s support), while you probably meant it will not disappear (because teams with less funding from GM would want cheaper events).

#55

Huh, I never would have caught the double meaning.

Let’s go eat Grandpa.:yikes:

Be careful. Punctuation can be a killer…

#56

Actually, it would mean that most of us would have to cut back on how many events we go to per year.

For Example:
(im just picking the first teams that come to mind)

217 went to: 5 events (1 Regional, Nationals, State Championships, and 2 districts
67 went to: 5 events (3 districts, State Championships, and Nationals)
68 (us) went to: 5 events (3 districts, State Championships, and Nationals)
247 went to: 5 events (3 districts, State Championships, and Nationals)

the cost for the 5 events totaled around 5K for 2 districts, $200 for another, 4K for State Championships, and 5K for Nationals…

that is $14,200 in registration fees folks… that does not cover hotel, food, or travel…

we can cut back, it was fun with each of those teams averaging around 85 matches in the season; we may not like it but that is a lot of cash that most of us can’t afford…

#57

That’s a good point…but I don’t quite understand how that correlates to my point.

If it is regarding the costs of regionals and districts I found a bit of information here: http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc/content.aspx?id=454. You are right that teams might have to cut back on spending, but that doesn’t mean that it would make sense for FIM to cancel the district system, which provides two districts plus an extra competition (states) for the same price as two regionals.

So I don’t really understand where we disagree.

#58

Is that it? :stuck_out_tongue:
We paid 19k in registration fees each year the past two years. The cost of attending 5 events for 14,200 is worth it for you folks, and I cant see how those teams would stop what they were doing regardless.

#59

Some big surprises in the Quality game this year. IQS is an intial quality metric that JD Powers reports on. This is one of the best measures of build quality, and design quality (many of the quality metrics are design issues). while the luxury brands are still on average better than the everyman cars, please note the extremely small delta on the volume guys. Honda 99, Toyota 101, Ford 102, Chevrolet 103… All of these better than the industry average of 108.

(these are issues per 100 cars or PP100).

#60

Probably falling a bit too far off the original topic here, but the NYTimes published an interesting interactive map depicting where our various North American vehicles’ major parts are sourced from and where they are final assembled.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/06/19/automobiles/20090619-auto-plants-4.html