GM strays further each season

FIRST General Forum
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These are personal feelings, and do not relfect the opinins or feelings of any team

It has been my experience that GM, monetarily, is a wonderful sponsor. I do not think a team could seriously ask for more money than they offer. However, with t his comes a flip side. GM’s directive, from plant managers, right on up through the executives working in the Renaissance Center in Detroit, MI, is that GM teams will have a competitive robot. Unfortunatel, for many teams, this directive seems to bee detracting from the goal of FIRST. GM seems to be worrying less about inspiring students to learn, and more about beating other sponsors. They are looking for good press coverage. they seem to feel their students should be glorified mechanics, cheerleaders and nothing more. Our GM sponsor is not even willing to turn the decision of strategy over to the students. This is of great concern to me. how wide-spread is this problem? Oram I deluded and FIRST relaly isn’t about inspiring students? Please, let me know. I will provide more details if you like.

~David

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Ok, first let me say such as you did, that my written remarks are personal and do not reflect my team…

Ok, let me start by saying that If I were you, I would not post such a message on CD, I believe that it may hurt your team over-all. I understand from where you are coming, I have friends on many teams where they are strictly “adult” teams. I would recommend to you that you do what you can to get it changed. Remember, the only people that can change something is the students. Talk to your mentors, see what can change. Remember that $$$ is not free, and many teams would love to be in your position. I wish mega-sponsors would let more of the kids do the work, but remember they are the ones trying to get there Ad’s and Banner’s seen, if you take a step back you can see there approach. (Even though I don’t agree with it)

I wish you luck in your problem, please tell me if you need any help, and I would love to hear from you if you get the problem corrected,

-Greg The Great

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Ok, so I’m also going to say that my opinions do not neccessarily reflect those of my team or teammates, but as a participant on a GM sponsored team, I have very strong opinions on this issue. Yes, GM likes their teams to win, just like in the real world. I am very happy about FIRST not wanting their entire competition to be based on competition, but when you have a game with winners, that basically ensures that people are going to get competitive. I mean, come on, a game with no competition? That one would be a real thriller. (yes, that was sarcastic) So, I say that if GM wants their teams to be competitive in a game which has very decisive winners and losers, then there is absolutely nothing wrong. In my team, all of the emphasis is not placed on winning, though much of it is. I say that as long as FIRST has competitive games, then GM has every right to ask their teams to be competitive in them.
Please note that these opinions are mine, and not neccessarily my team’s.

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*Originally posted by cutiebethy *
**So, I say that if GM wants their teams to be competitive in a game which has very decisive winners and losers, then there is absolutely nothing wrong. In my team, all of the emphasis is not placed on winning, though much of it is. I say that as long as FIRST has competitive games, then GM has every right to ask their teams to be competitive in them.
Please note that these opinions are mine, and not neccessarily my team’s. **

Well Said.

-Greg The Great

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I may be wrong but here goes. I read in a CD forum that a quote from Dean said something to the tune of, It is not bad to have Engineers build the robots. If students are inspired by what they can see being accomplished then the goal is being met.

I have gone strictly off memory but I believe the spirit is correct. The reason I remember is, I felt that some times as mentors we may do too much. Learning is accomplished through making mistakes and recognizing them. I read Deans statements and felt that SOMETIMES mentors might end up doing too much but should always strive to have student input and involvement. My feelings are that if sponsors are completely taking over then they should read and study the mentoring guide below. I see mentoring as a fine line that as mentors we must watch closely so as not to turn students off from a GREAT experience.

http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/mentoring.htm

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The one season we have had with GM sponsorship has been entirely positive, in my opinion. We got great assistance from the machine shop at the GM Tech Center, had help from our first real engineer ever, and had nothing but good things to say about GM. Yes, they tend to be competitive, but so are we. We would never think of building anything other than a competitive robot. This has not posed any problem, though, for us. It’s our own choice to make such an effort, and it’s supported from the students all the way up to the sponsor. The students are involved and inspired in every step of the process. Competition can be a great motivator, as long as you approach it in the right way, which I’d like to think the FEDS, and in turn, GM, do.

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*Originally posted by GMsNightmare *
These are personal feelings, and do not relfect the opinins or feelings of any team
Creating multiple accounts is against the forum rules, David B.

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If you don’t want your GM sponsor, send it over our way. We would accept with open arms. (although I do swear by my Ford and my mom’s GM has had more problems than you could imagine).

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*Originally posted by sanddrag *
**If you don’t want your GM sponsor, send it over our way. We would accept with open arms. (although I do swear by my Ford and my mom’s GM has had more problems than you could imagine). **

I think almost every team would want a GM sponsorship, It basically eliminates the use for fund-raisers, and members of the team paying out of there own pocket. I think even if they are not letting it be 100% students, it is better that you have a well-funded team, then a team that is 100 % student team is on the verge of not going to competition due to a lack of funds.

I do hope however that you do work the problem out, and that your team becomes more “student” run.

-Greg The Great

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*Originally posted by GregTheGreat *
**I think almost every team would want a GM sponsorship, It basically eliminates the use for fund-raisers, and members of the team paying out of there own pocket.
-Greg The Great **

This is a myth. The GM teams I am familiar with still require their students to participate in fundraisers.

As for this entire situation, I strongly doubt that the management of GM is giving the sort of directive which says that students should only be cheerleaders and not work on the robot. I have seen many teams who are not GM-sponsored with adults who have this sort of “win at all costs” attitude. However, this sort of pressure from upper management does not seem realistic to me.

Also, as a general piece of advice, don’t air your team’s dirty laundry on these forums. While you may want advice with how to handle a situation or you want people to know that things are going on, it is better to take the issue to your team leadership (school, sponsor, etc.) and work out the issue within your team.

If that solution does not work for you, then start a new team. This sort of frustration and reaction has happened many times in FIRST and the re-started team often goes on to do well.

Good luck, and push for what you think is right… just do it in the right way.

Andy B.

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*Originally posted by GregTheGreat *
I think almost every team would want a GM sponsorship, It basically eliminates the use for fund-raisers, and members of the team paying out of there own pocket. I think even if they are not letting it be 100% students, it is better that you have a well-funded team, then a team that is 100 % student team is on the verge of not going to competition due to a lack of funds.

Andy is right. Having a GM sponsor in no way eliminates the need to fund raise. In my two years on a GM team, I had to fund raise a lot. I hear the words “big money teams” and such, but this is not usually the case. Any team sponsored by an OEM like Ford, Chysler and GM are always unsure about their future. Cost savings initiatives on the scale of 4 billion dollars or more make robotics teams targets for quick savings. This is also true of any tier one company that relies on the OEM’s for business such as Delphi, Visteon, or in our case Collins & Aikman. The automotive industry, from my experience, is a very good environment for FIRST teams, but it is not always the most stable one.

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Let me first start off by saying that I agree completely with Andy Baker’s last post.

I have been involved indirectly with General Motor’s Robotics Teams for the past 7 years and directly involved with General Motor’s Robotics Teams for the past 6 years. At no time thus far has my experiences with team 68 (100% sponsored by General Motors) or team 857 (partially sponsored by General Motors) been summed up by David B.'s remarks in this forum. General Motor’s, as all other sponsors, would like to see teams they help support at the top of the rankings along with coming away from competitions across the nation with trophies/metals. I have had the opportunity over the course of being involved with General Motors to meet many of the executives that support FIRST and I know many of them on a personal level. Through this I can tell you that they don’t want us to be just “glorified mechanics, cheerleaders and nothing more”. I have seen the pride on their faces when they walk through the pits at competitions, along with coming down to the build areas that we use during the season leading up to competitions. There is a love to see us working hard and question why can’t we do it this way. I know from experience that they enjoy even more one of us students being able to prove that it can be done, when we have been told it can’t.

From my experiences on team 68: Each returning student is required to do a fund raising project, a community service project, along with doing at least one presentation to a local school; this is required in order to be considered back on the team. These requirements are often exceeded, along with participating in helping with Lego League and OCCRA (Oakland County Competitive Robotics Association). The team as a whole also does fund raising projects up until build season. These events often take place at Ford Field or at the Silverdome, working concession stands. Last year alone, the 20 students, parents and the 10 advisors of Truck Town put in just more than 19,000 hours. Also leading up to the build season the team host “Robotics 101” sessions. Through these sessions the students from previous years, along with the advisors teach the new members the basics behind robotics. They learn the various tools, along with the names of the machines and the correct way in which to use them. Through this the learning curve is almost eliminated. This also allows the students more freedom once the build cycle starts.

I was on the Truck Town team for 3 years. During this three-year period, I was one of the prime builders. I assisted in the build of the chassis, the drive units, the arms, and transmissions. By assisted I mean my best friend and I designed and built it from the ground up. Yes of course there were a couple of parts that we needed fast and had no idea on how to build, which we asked an advisor to build. The only catch to them building it was we had to both make the time to watch them from start to finish on the part. As you can guess, the next time we needed it, we were able to do it ourselves.

As an advisor now for team 68: I still get phone calls and emails from other advisors in the off season about questions on how to do things that I learned as a student on the team This only further confirms to me that General Motors truly puts their trust in the students hands.

I know that I am not alone in what I have written above. I know many other General Motors Robotics alumni from various teams and I am 100% confident that they will support me in what I have written above.

Recommendation: Talk to the advisors and teachers on your team. If you have anything further to say, please email me at [email protected] Lets try to follow Andy Baker’s advice.

Mark Garver

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*Originally posted by Bduggan04 *
**Andy is right. Having a GM sponsor in no way eliminates the need to fund raise. In my two years on a GM team, I had to fund raise a lot. I hear the words “big money teams” and such, but this is not usually the case. Any team sponsored by an OEM like Ford, Chysler and GM are always unsure about their future. Cost savings initiatives on the scale of 4 billion dollars or more make robotics teams targets for quick savings. This is also true of any tier one company that relies on the OEM’s for business such as Delphi, Visteon, or in our case Collins & Aikman. The automotive industry, from my experience, is a very good environment for FIRST teams, but it is not always the most stable one. **

In no way was I saying that GM teams have all the money they need, I know that (almost) every team has to raise money in some way or another, my point was that many teams wish that such large amounts of sponsorship money was available to them.

Case in point… Team 1000 a rookie team worked very hard to raise the money to go to competition. They did constant fund raisers, and paid a lot out of there own pockets.

I was just stating that “Big Sponsorship Companies” do want there advertisements to be seen, if that is a breach in FIRST’s ethics, that is for you to decide, personally I believe it is, although if I were the captain of a team where I had the choice of being a “well-funded” team with a few setbacks, such as not being totally student built, I would take that over having no team. I think it would be better to have a team that has mainly mentor building now, and then figure out how to get more involved.

Just again, i would like to say that my opinions to not reflect my teams, sponsors, or schools beliefs on this topic in any way.

I’m always up for a heated discussion like this, I believe that discussions like this make people remember just how some other teams work, and to be grateful for your team and your sponsors.

Thanks,

-Greg The Great

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*Originally posted by Brandon Martus *
**Creating multiple accounts is against the forum rules, David B. **

Don’t mess with Brandon on this one. I tried and got burned like two years ago, before the @#!$@#!$ thingy was built in. I had some [choice] words to use then. Cool off and look at the bigger picture and don’t throw trash on the forum floor. :wink:

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I want to set a few thing straight here.

First of all, I am a 3rd year member of a GM team. That happens to be Team 68, Truck Town Thunder. As many people on my team joke about, I would get a GM tattoo. I love GM; they are a wonderful sponsor. The odd thing is, my father is a firefighter, and my mother works for the county. I have no direct relatives in the automotive industry at all. I say this to emphasize my point; my love of GM comes not from predetermined emotion, but from a life-changing experience.

It didn’t really hit me until nationals 2002 at Epcot. This was my first year on T3, and I had learned so very much. But, a very special thing happened to me, something much more important. I was discussing the events of the day with my friend, and co-team member, Joe. He and I began talking of memories past of the year. And then it hit me. How did I come this far so fast? I was a completely different person; motivated, excited, inspired, spirited, and my creativity was overflowing.

After regaining a certain level of normal thinking, I realized that I wouldn’t have felt this way without a few key elements. All of these so-called “elements” were directly related to GM. Specifically, our advisors. If any of you are reading this, I want you to thank you for making me a better person, and for helping me come as far as I have. The advisors on T3 are just wonderful. It’s difficult to put into words. Since our team has no school associated with it, you don’t get the whole “student-vs-teacher” mentality. Our advisors are our superior, intelligent, friends.

More to the point of this thread, our Advisors teach us to become adults. Our team leader explains this to the new students each year. “We can not promise you a life-changing experience, or an unrealistic view of life. We can, however, promise you a real life situation. You will be treated like adults, and expected to behave like adults. We win and lose graciously.”

Gracious professionalism is the fundamental element of our team, as should be with any other team. Don’t get me wrong, we are here to try to win. That’s what competition is all about. But it’s more than just competition, and my team understands that. I know that I would much rather lose a competition and see one of my fellow team members inspired to fix a problem, and gain this inspirational spark, than simply go home with a gold medal. And our advisors hold this belief to heart as well.

There is also something that I have seen in posts repeatedly, and that I need to address. I am sick of hearing that teams with well known sponsors don’t do any fundraising. If anything, my team does more fundraising than teams with simply a school sponsor. Instead of thinking of sponsors in terms of the amount of money that is given, try to think of them in terms of the amount that we are expected to earn. I know that Mark Garver already stated it, but over 19,000 hours were donated for fundraising last year. Keep in mind that we have a team of about 20 students, and 15 advisors. That is a lot of work!

I am not saying that there are no perks involved with being with GM. We are such a wonderful advertising opportunity for GM, and I love every aspect of it. Sure, we have cool toys like our big truck and our little truck, but it’s more than that:

• GM gives our team a home and a family, Our home being a wing of TPC Central Truck and Bus Mockup, and our family being our wonderful advisors.

• Being on a “big-sponsor” does not mean that you are given a check for all expenses, and told to make the company look good by winning all of your robotics competitions.

• And I am certainly not a glorified mechanic, cheerleader, or anything less than that.

• I happen to be a proud, highly trained, member of a team who cares more about their students getting a good experience in life, than winning a competition.

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*Originally posted by magnasmific *
**I want to set a few thing straight here.
• GM gives our team a home and a family, Our home being a wing of TPC Central Truck and Bus Mockup, and our family being our wonderful advisors.

• Being on a “big-sponsor” does not mean that you are given a check for all expenses, and told to make the company look good by winning all of your robotics competitions.

• And I am certainly not a glorified mechanic, cheerleader, or anything less than that.

• I happen to be a proud, highly trained, member of a team who cares more about their students getting a good experience in life, than winning a competition. **

Thanks For Clearing all this up… I wish you the best of luck in this upcoming season.

-Greg The Great

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As another mentor of not only GM/Troy #226 as well as helping with the three other GM Teams that share in the build area I can without a doubt back up the comments made by the Team #68 members. From our Executive Director down to the engineers there has never been some sort of rule or even a mention that the teams must win. This is a volunteer deal, I lose money each and every year supporting the team, be it materials or traveling to events to help out, but I do it because I think it makes a difference.

Would we as engineers and mentors like to win, heck yes, that is the competitive nature of any engineer. These days that’s what business is about. This is a competition so simply building a robot and a team for the sole purpose of being in the event is pretty useless. In all of the 4 teams that build at the MFG A Tech center, you will see students machining, drilling assembling and programming.

I am not sure why someone would even start they discussion like this in the first place. If you think GM is such a bad sponsor, tell them that your team is taking a new direction and no longer needs our help, then we can take the resources to another team that not only respects the resources but also appreciates them.

Matt

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*Originally posted by Matt Reiland *
**I am not sure why someone would even start they discussion like this in the first place. If you think GM is such a bad sponsor, tell them that your team is taking a new direction and no longer needs our help, then we can take the resources to another team that not only respects the resources but also appreciates them.

Matt **

I was wondering the same thing. I also thought it was strange that he generalized his experience to include all GM teams. This is one of those thoughts you should keep in your head and either change it, or quit. I see nothing to be gained through posting threads like these.

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Like most of the other posters in this thread, I speak for myself and in NO WAY do I represent any other members of 818 or other GM-sponsored teams.

To the best of my knowledge, we’ve never had GM interfere with our team. We haven’t had them dictate our strategy or design our robot, nor have we been told that we have to win. There is only one GM employee that I can think of who, from what I have observed, has been somewhat miffed that we didn’t win anything last year. Other than that one person, I can’t think of anyone who’s been upset that we haven’t won any of the major awards yet.

GM supports us, and we support them in turn, showing up at events when requested. Admittedly, our team hasn’t been nearly as successful as T3, 67, 226, or some of the other GM-sponsored teams we’ve become friends with. As far as I can tell, though, GM doesn’t care about that. We build a robot, and we try our hardest to win while forwarding the goals of FIRST.

It’s unfortunate that you feel that way about your team, David, but yours may be an exception. I haven’t heard any of the GM-sponsored teams in my area complain about their sponsorship.

Remember: think before you speak. If you’ve got a problem with your sponsor, talk to your team leaders. Complaining about this publically is most definitely NOT a form of gracious professionalism.

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I have to tell you, ~David, that you are wrong. You may have had some experiences that didn’t sit right with you, but to generalize as you have reflects the following:

  1. You have no clue. Do you know how many GM teams there are? Do you have any idea that the spectrum of GM teams runs from “casual” to “just have fun, who cares about winning” to “the students do all the work” to “lets build a competitive robot” to “lets show 'em what the best student/engineer-built teams can do.” There are many GM teams (20+ I think? I lost count). Some you have heard of a lot. Some you have never heard of. Thats because they reflect the spectrum of all types of teams - from all sponsors in FIRST.

  2. Your facts are wrong. There is no direction from the top as to how GM teams are run. Local decisions by team members are what makes the teams run. This is a big company, and in my 7 years of experience they respect the rights of teams to do their own thing.

All of the supposedly “big time” GM teams that I know put significant effort into giving their students a good technical experience with a high level of involvement. I would challenge you to come into my shop and exceed what experienced students on my team know about brainstorming, designing, machining, building, testing, rebuilding, practicing, scouting … ok I’ll stop now.

  1. Your figures are wrong. The amount of money that GM-sponsored teams get is all over the map. Some get a little, some get more. Some sponsorship money is locally given, and the people on top probably don’t even know its being given. In my experience the funding is given without significant direction from the top about how a team is run.

All of the supposedly “well-funded” GM teams that I know do significant amounts of their own fundraising. I would stack our average number up against other teams any day.

I once asked a GM vice president for a lot of money to support things related solely to FIRST. He asked me one question: “Are the students getting a good experience for this money?” Then he approved the money. I have to tell you that EVERY GM executive I’ve ever talked to about FIRST (and I’ve talked to a lot of 'em) has had an attitude similar to this. I am proud of the way GM people support students involved in FIRST.

  1. Your assumptions are wrong. You assume that GM has as a primary motive the promotion of their name. If that was the case, don’t you think GM would force teams to have the GM name prominently featured in their team names? Theres a whole bunch of “GM” teams out there where you have to look hard to know that its a GM-sponsored team because a bunch of other sponsors are featured also. Some sponsors require a team to list them first; we don’t even come close to this.

  2. You intentions are wrong. I admit that I don’t know what all of your intentions are. But your approach (hiding your identity, making up a derogatory screen name, posting things that are not true) stinks of just trying to hurt someone else rather than trying to make things better.

I hope, if you are still involved in FIRST, that you talk to someone you trust about how your team is run, and try to figure out a way to improve things. Because in the end, thats what everyone who cares about FIRST’s goals would do. If you are interested in IMPROVING things on your team, and you don’t feel you have anyone to turn to, please feel free to email me at [email protected]. I’ll try to help.

If you aren’t interested in improving things, my suggestion would be for you to just go away.

Ken