Gracious Professionalism?

FIRST General Forum
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Hi, most of you guys probably don’t know me and that’s fine. My time in FIRST can be described as meeting new people and relishing in the experiences that the FIRST program brings to teams around the world. This has led me to meet amazing people who belong to amazing teams. Creating a long lasting relationship not only between teams, but between people. Over time I have come to question why I believe gracious professionalism has been slowly decreasing as the years go by. I like to believe that I am the unluckiest/luckiest member on my team. I have never seen team 503 win a competition since I joined, yet I have loved every second of my experience here. Meeting new teams and new people means listening to new point of views and opinions on certain subjects. What I have come to gather over the years has shocked me in every regard.

Why do some people in FIRST find it ok to accuse certain teams of bending the rules and discouraging creativity because of a team’s success? If there is any rule bending or lack in student build on any team that is wrong in its own right, but accusing teams is, in my opinion, just as bad. Very little people (if not any) truly know whats going on with these teams in the first place and for a person to come up and said “___ doesn’t build this” or “_____ does that” is just immoral. We should be able to trust and respect every team for who they tell us to be and not accuse them of what we may hear or assume.

I remember during build season this year it was the first time I got to see us bag our robot when the six weeks ended. I was confused because it was just in a bag within our build space. I looked over at my head mentor and said,

“So what is stopping a team from just going a day or two longer and then bagging up the robot?”

He just looked at me and answered

“You just have to trust that no one else does those types of things and if they do that’s their choice and there is no reason to fault them for that. FIRST is your experience and you cannot let anyone else hinder what you can achieve.”

And I agree completely. There is something completely respectful and amazing to see FIRST teams who have members go through 4 years of the program without winning a single competition or even a single award. Those are the teams that are looked at by others and respected for what they do. Why can’t we look at everyone in that same way? So if a team that we respected because of their misfortune were to suddenly become very fortunate we would have to question their every move?

All I am saying that in the spirit of FIRST, whether teams choose to do things that we don’t agree with or not, we should not hold it against them. Your FIRST experience should be spent with your team and when you look at others you should give them the respect and value as you would a fellow team member. I am not saying or accusing anyone on these forums of doing so, but I know and I sure hope some of you guys know that stuff like this happens.

Harsh feelings are created between teams just because of a rumor that is spreading or even jealousy. Which even if that said rumor is true, it is still not gracious, nor professional to look at any team differently because of it.

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All I will say is that this topic is a double edged sword with a counter argument that is just as insightful as this one.

Do we need teams policing teams? Nope. Yet there is nothing a team can do if they know, (i.e. have reasonable evidence of) another team flagrantly breaking these types of rules. Such is life. In my mind, FIRST is about finding the balance between being graciously complacent and being strictly professional in this type of situation.

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From what I’ve seen, the teams that cheat are not usually the teams that win.

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I saw this and feel like I have to comment on it. Until this year, I can honestly admit that I’ve felt a couple of teams have had an unfair advantage here and there but really it’s not appropriate AT ALL to bring it up to them. I never have and never will because that’s a little bit of Gracious Professionalism too. Also, just to set the right scene up here, they were only VERY, VERY minor concerns and after competition I threw those ideas away. However, I have to say “until this year” because this year our team won the Granite State Regional and one of my friends on our team said he went to the movies and saw some students from another team that attended GSR and when he showed them a picture of our robot he said they immediately recognized it and said that the ref’s gave us a break because we hadn’t won any other year. I completely disagree with that and it was actually pretty hurtful to hear! Of course it was never really a big deal at all and certainly isn’t on my mind all the time now since I simply know that couldn’t happen, but it really just isn’t in the category of ‘Gracious Professionalism’ to think that some teams get unfair advantages or ‘free passes’ or anything like that. Not telling anyone what to do or think, but I really think that we should be able to trust FIRST and everyone a part of it to follow the rules equally and ‘play fair’. That’s what I feel from the past competitions I’ve been to and being involved for the past few years meeting everyone I can in FIRST, and I get the sense that this is true for all competitions and teams!

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I encourage anyone to really read the OP a few times. Just go through it an extra time and let it sink in a little.

It’s often hard for people to remember that every team is just like yours. It’s very easy to hate something without a face. It’s far too easy to go “those jerks are cheaters! they bend the rules!”, or “that team’s all mentor built, i guarantee it”, or “that team never lets their students have any fun” when all you have of that team is their number and the latest bot that’s kicked your butt 6 or 7 times. It’s so important to let it sink in that every team has human beings on it, just like yours. You know that shy kid who finally came out of his shell at your first regional? I bet 469 has a few of those too. The soft spoken girl who joined the team for Chairman’s stuff who ended up CADing the robot senior year? I bet 217 has someone like that. You’ve spent months designing, building, and executing with your robot, your strategy, and your team… These people are like your family. But don’t forget it’s the exact same story on 1114, or any other “big bad” team.

There’s so much to be lost if you spend your FIRST season knocking down those more successful, harder working, or luckier than you. At best, you have a head full of ill will and can’t shake that jealousy no matter what you do. At worst, you end up starting or spreading a rumor, or you actively do something so stupid it not only hurts you and your team’s reputation, but you hurt everyone on those big bad teams as well. How would you like it if your entire season was spent dealing with attacks from people who know nothing about you or the hard work you’ve put into your machine? What if people constantly harassed you just for being successful?

There are many reasons we celebrate success in FIRST. Just one of the many reasons is because it’s far, far better than the alternative. Gracious professionalism is making sure you’re playing legally and to the best of your ability, while not letting jealousy cloud your judgment of others.

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I just want people to remember that these are all high school students. Like Chris said its easy to hide behind a team name/number but they are kids! Why accuse kids of cheating? I just dont get it… Even if it is true, there is no reason to let that harm you FIRST experiance in anyway. Respect them for who they say they are and move on. In the end it will only hurt them. Winning is nice, but it isent everything. So the next time you are upset because you feel like another team is “winning by bending the rules”, dont let it get to you. Odds are they probably arent doing anything wrong and you are just hurting yourself.

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You sure about that?

Jane

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What I ment was it there truly is a team that lets their mentors build their bot, when you insult said team or spread rumors about them you are not only hurting the mentors, but the students who are involved. Who ARE high schoolers

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Well, if those are your concerns, they remind me of the visual of the robot being the campfire that we all gather 'round. If that be the case, then what fuels the campfire? Integrity, honor, respect, trust, humor, networking, fun. What causes the flames to die down? Gossip, grudges, lying, rule breaking, distrust, jealousy, and selfishness.

The achievement and wonder of the FIRST organization is that many students and mentors work together, along with others, to build their teams and their communities in ways that are beneficial, often mutually beneficial. Sometimes, the campfire almost feels like a bonfire when it is being fed wisely.

Jane

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This thread reminds me of something that I’ve seen as a religious thing, as a philosophy of Bill Belichick, coach of the New England Patriots and read from people on CD: Work hard on those things you can control, accept those you can’t, and hope to have the wisdom to tell the difference. It makes more sense with every year that goes by.

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Fuzzwaz - Please help me by clarifying what this thread is supposed to accomplish - I’m having a difficult time discerning its purpose. - What result or accomplishment are you hoping for? - Thanks in advance. - Blake

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The whole point of this post was that I wanted to know what the FIRST community thinks about teams essentially “judging” other teams for what they may/may not do.

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Essentially I think it is human nature to judge. When we lose we don’t want to admit that someone is “better” than us so we make up excuses. These can range from, “I would have gotten away with it too if it weren’t for those meddling kids” to “YOU CHEATED!” Jealousy is an ugly part of all of us and it is something we will have to overcome for the rest of our lives.

Yeah, it sucks that some people keep harping on teams and accusing them of cheating publicly but realistically there is nothing we can do about it other than accept it as behavior that we do not want to imitate.

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I don’t like it. For one thing, 99.9999% of the time, no evidence is brought out that X is actually happening (and some of the time there, whoever brings it up says that none is needed, you know it’s happening–which we don’t). For another, there is often no rule prohibiting X, or the rule is unenforceable (and I generally assume that it is followed, despite it not being enforceable).

I have yet to give out any negative reputation here on CD. However, the times that I have come very close were when somebody opted to accuse another team of what was thought to be cheating, and then held on to that idea despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary from all involved or observing.

I’m not going to judge a team unless they are, in fact, doing something wrong and not fixing it. I will, however, tend to come out strongly against anybody who does so publicly without evidence.

If somebody actually did cheat, in some way, then the appropriate format is not to say something publicly. You go to the team and inform them. Maybe you’re missing something, or maybe they’re missing something and don’t know it. Then, if they don’t correct it, you talk to the Lead Inspector or the Regional Director, as appropriate. Trust them to take the appropriate action.

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I feel the same way. If a team is going to relish in the fact that they are bending rules and are completely aware of such things then it is completely appropriate to inform said team of your dislikes. But most of the time it is just a rumor that spreads because a few people are angry that they are losing or that someone else is winning. And that rumor ends up being a scapegoat for teams who feel necessary to use it and then suddenly it becomes “fact” and is used against certain teams in an unfriendly manner…

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This sums up my thoughts on the topic perfectly.

I have been involved with enough organizations to know that the problems presented here are by no means limited to FIRST. I have seen people on one team or club get all worked up about what their competitors are doing, and it can really tear some people up. Then something happens with the competitor (they win, they fold, whatever) and rumors start going around. The situation gets just plain ugly.

As others have said, calling them out publicly is never a good idea either. Partially because it fuels rumors that are largely untrue.

Make your FIRST season your first season. Don’t spend time worrying about what other teams are doing. Don’t ask yourself if everyone else is playing by the rules. When it comes down to it, it doesn’t matter what the other teams are doing; what you are doing is what is truly important.

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in my 2 years of first, i have yet to see a robot that anyone though was made by mentors win. my first year a robot that was made from wood by students who obviously made it shutout every team and completely dominated everyone, including robots that were made by teams with not only a much larger budget, but much more outside help. creativity and a good game strategy as well as simple reliability usually make winning robots, not money and mentors or shop capabilities.

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After spending countless hours working on your robot/strategy/presentations and going to an event and coming home empty handed, its much easier to say “So and so won because they have more money” or “So and so won because they have more mentors” etc. etc.

The point is most of the time these are snap judgments based on no factual evidence besides you being upset your team did not “win”.

The few really motivated students out there will see another team win that may have more money or mentors or whatever it may be and say “Hey, why can’t we have that?”. That student will then be motivated to gain better financial backing, mentor support, community resources etc.

Quite honestly, I don’t really listen to anything someone says about another team (good or bad), unless I know for a fact that particular person has worked first hand with the said team (which is hardly ever). Its very easy to make blanket statements from afar, but after being in FIRST for 10 years, I know how pointless that is because in all honesty it accomplishes nothing but giving yourself an excuse for shortcomings.

-Brando

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I personally think that there are two parts of GP. There is the trust and the action.

GP to me says a lot about the “honor system”. Teams trusting teams. We have all gone through similar experiences, and therefore we know what its like. I can honestly say that I don’t think that there is a single FRC team where 100% (and I mean a full 100%) of the robot is done by students. Whether it be a small part, or a whole design concept, there must be some involvement of mentors, otherwise, what are they good for? And I think a lot of us can accept that. Its those people that don’t accept that, that start these rumors, and begin to judge. I also think that many teams do not realize the struggles of other teams. Sure a team may have better funding, but is their community involved? Do they have outside help from families and friends? I’m not saying that some teams have it easier, but teams are just like people, we all have our problems. However, on the same term, some teams don’t realize how easy that they might have it. Some teams are at risk of getting shut down by their schools, some teams barley have enough money to participate, some teams barley have enough mentors.

The second part of GP to me is that actions performed by students and mentors. I have commonly joked about “those teams”. You all know “those teams” with plenty of funding, plenty of mentors, and plenty of help. And good for them! Thats great! The problem come when they begin to think that they are better because of it. Teams that will dominate on the field are still teams. Just because you may be seeded higher, does not give you the right to boss other teams around, we are all peers. It also becomes a problem when mentors act too much like bosses. This is where problems start. A respectable well oiled team that is helpful, nice, and not afraid to lose, is great. However a rude well oiled team (and they’re aren’t many) that care more about winning than anything else is a problem.

This past year my team has gone through a lot. We were last place in GSR 2009, but regional winners in 2010. There was no difference in funding, just one new mentor (after one left that is) and a couple new students. What really drove us was not our achievements, but our failures. We didn’t do well because we had more money, we did well because we wanted it more, and put more into. Sure we may have had to work a little harder than other teams, but its always worth a shot. There is nothing that can stop a well inspired and driven team.