“FIRST has the power to reduce burnout by taking a close look at what their mission really is. Inspiration, if that is the mission, can exist by reducing the constriction put upon teams. Shipping rules, game rules that require teams to use the new technology to be competitive, and finally rules that constrain time before and after ship date are but a few areas that FIRST can assist the program with.”
There are some that recognize this quote but many who won’t. I was written by a wise and seasoned member of the FIRST community. I came across a VERY long article written by this person and wondered why I had not ever seen it before. There are many enlightening points of view and history that many will find rewarding and interesting.
I would like to start this thread to bring to the CD community gems such as this that can help, warn and inspire us as we come down from this years experience and look at whether it has been worth the while. If you have such articles please point us to them.
This quote came from Mike Martus of Team 47 fame. It can be found on Team 47 website http://team.chiefdelphi.com/ . The writings can be found at http://team.chiefdelphi.com/story.htm . It is a long read but very interesting. Just think, of all of the time that I have known Mike and CD 47 I have not taken the time (till now) to explore their website. Shame on me.
THIS THREAD IS TO DISCUSS THE STUDENT GRADES AND TRAVEL REQUIREMENTS, ETC>
That was one of the most articulate articles I have read about FIRST in a while. That said, there was section of the article that bothered me enough to bring it up here. As the author described his team’s selection process, he seemed to focus on the fact that students need to be making good grades before joining the team. To me, this contradicted the theme of inspiration that was prevalent throughout the rest of the article. Students who are already making good grades have already, at least in a small way, been inspired by school. There are plenty of capable students with sub par grade point averages who have yet to be inspired and it seems a shame to deny them an opportunity as inspiring as FIRST simply because no one has shown them why academics can be worthwhile.
When you have a good reputation and an exciting program then the lure of the team can act as an incentive for students to raise their grades. Mike did not state what the grade level was either. Many sport teams run the same way. Many have to get C average or better to be able to try out for the team.
Mike, can you help us out a little with your teams policies and how they work out?
Steve, you bring up an awesome point. I’m not sure about how 47 does business, but in the time I was with 103, the rule was “honor roll” to participate. We then instituted a peer tutoring program to support the effort. Traditionally, we had at least 4-5 students who were NOT honor roll students before joining 103, but because of their desire to participate and go to competitions, they “elevated” their academic performance and got help from team members when necessary. It was rare that we had to leave a student behind for falling short.
Our team has found that there is no corelation between a student’s grades and his or her potential to contribute to our team. Consequently, GPAs play no role in whether any particular student is welcome on our team. Actually, we don’t specifically exclude anyone. We’ve found that our teams whittle themselves down as the people who belong on the team come to meetings and get things accomplished while the people who don’t belong on the team stop coming.
234 has a similar rule and i fully agree with it. part of FIRST is to inspire, but it is also to create the next generation of scientists, engineers and technologists. Students who are already struggling with their coursework could fall even further behind with the added load of being on the robotics team.
We also have strict travel requirements that require students to get approval from every teacher that they can “academically” afford to miss class while on a trip. A few kids have stayed home once - and usually that motivates them to step up their performance.
We find that this motivation keeps students working hard to maintain their grades. we offer tutoring help for anyone who needs it, and many students study together while we are traveling. More than one parent has said that the risk of not being on the team and able to travel has helped their child focus on schoolwork and grades.
As good as FIRST is, just being on a FIRST team will not get you into a top college or get you your dream job. Academic performance does, and that has to come first, with being a part of a FIRST team a bonus on the activities and involvement line.
/OFF TOPIC/: HAve we taken this thread way off of the intended topic? /BACK ON TOPIC/
Our team operates the same way…everyone is welcome regardless of scholastic ability. We have some high scholastic abilities, some regular honor roll, some vocational students. They don’t all attend the same school and our team does not have a “club” feel to it. It really feels like a team, with each person finding a place where they are needed. Everyone contributes, we all get along (usually-build season can get stressful and tempermental with sugar excesses and sleep deprivation), and we all learn from each other. The existing team is great about welcoming new students and helping them get acclimated to the workshop, personalities, and the pace of the team. During build season, the students are encouraged to bring their school work to the workshop and the mentors and other students are there to help/tutor if they need it. It truly is an extended family atmosphere.
While it’s true that participating in FIRST won’t get you a top college, is that really the most important thing? There are plenty of decent colleges out there, and anyone resourceful enough to build a robot in six weeks should be able to find one that’s right for them. Also, I have never heard of any employer asking a college-educated potential employee about their high school GPA. In the long run, the hands on experience from FIRST is way more useful than straight A’s.
Our team also functiosn somwhat like most other programs. We allow anyone who wants to participate to do just that no matter what their grades are. However, there are some limitations to that. We have a rule that says you must have all A’s and B’s to travel with your teacher’s permission. There are rare occurances where that rule is bent and that is if the teacher says that their grade book is not current online and that the student in fact is passing.
Also, our lead mentor keeps track of all 120+ kids in one way or another and makes sure that if a person isn’t doing so hot in a class that he sits down to talk with them and makes sure that they know school comes first and that hif they don’t get their grades up, they won’t miss school. That usually gets them crackin.
I know this from experience
Part of being a member of a FIRST team is maintaining our responsibilities and commitments. Students have responsibilities to their other classes, to doing their homework, to maintaining their academic grades. The mentors have the responsibility of their jobs and maintaining their level of production and efficiency, all the while participating in FIRST.
That is real world.
Inspiration and recognition of science and technology is not something that takes the place of your education for 6 weeks or 12 weeks or ever. Not on a high school level, not on a college level. It takes place along side it.
Teams who have developed systems that support the students participating in the build and competition season, realize that the balance is difficult. There are only so many hours in a day. There are only so many directions a person can move in at one time. The tutoring and the fact that students know going in that there are expectations regarding their responsibilities to their classes and grades help the individual and the team in the short term and in the long term. FIRST teams come from all sorts of backgrounds and environs. School systems aren’t the same across the board and don’t provide the same level of support across the board. Wise leaders develop ways to help students succeed in both the short term and the long term, the long term being a successful college career and obtaining employment in their chosen fields of science, technology, and others.
When I was a student on Teams 573 and 1, we had to be receiving no lower than a C in all of our classes in order to travel. If we were missing school for an event, we were required to study for a given amount of time (usually 2-4 hours, depending on the amount of time absent).
While I think all students should be given the opportunity to participate in the FIRST program given its nature, I think it’s a very good idea to implement some kind of grade policy for travel. I like to see it not as something that will steer students away from the program, but as another challenge, in addition to the challenges of design, build, and competition.
Students on team 648 MUST maintain a “C” average to be on the team. Similar to the local sports teams and Iowa/Illinois state law there is a procedure followed before dismissal that involves putting them on academic probation for a number of weeks until their grades are sufficient. We had several problems with this in 2007.
We’ve also got an attendance policy in place that requires students to attend at least 75% of all meetings during the build season and a few before/after. There are exceptions made for conflicting activities, especially band and work. This ensures that the students come and participate, not letting down their teammates. It also makes sure they’ll learn.
I think that anyone should be able to be on a FIRST team, regardless of grades. Why cant someone with low grades contribute to a team? with a basketball or football team i can see grades being a factor, but with robotics its completely different. Robotics is a place ware you can learn so much from being on a team, i highly doubt that you can learn as much on a basketball team than you can on a FIRST team.
Saying someone cant be on the team because they have low grades is saying “well you don’t do good in school, so you don’t deserve a chance to learn anything here and be inspired to do good just because you currently don’t do so good”
Personally i think I’m doing better in school now that I’m in robotics and have a much higher desire to learn, and now i might be taking extra classes over the summer just to learn more and get farther in school, and if i wasn’t allowed on the team because of my grades i would have never got the chance to see that.
I will let the leader of 340 talk more about it if he sees the thread, but on 340 there is some grade requirement (which I cannot remember) but the more important part of my post is that team members cannot have any disciplinary referrals. I don’t know if anybody here know what a referral is but it is basically getting written up.
Unfortunately, colleges do look at your GPA as either equal or greater in value then robotics or any club. So, I doubt a low GPA, can be balanced out by being part of FIRST. The good news is that FIRST with a good GPA makes a resume that stands out from the pack. First most engineering colleges look for things that show that you are interested in engineering, this is were FIRST fills in the gap. Second, FIRST also provides the ability to become a leader and also develop other virtues that colleges look for. High School is just a stepping stone to College, which is a stepping stone to a career; meaning that you should do good in school while being in FIRST to gain the maximum benefit from it.
When you apply for scholarships, GPA will likely be a determining factor. Why, people who award scholarships want to help students succeed in college, and one of the best indicators for that is demonstrated academic ability in high school.
When you apply to colleges and universities, you will find that many of them use your GPA as a first screen. Why, if you cannot do the high school work, then you probably cannot do the college level work. The study skills need to be learned early and carried through. So, GPA is very important. Other activities, including FIRST, are part of the next level review. You have to pass the first screen to get looked at for the second screen.
When you are ready to graduate from college, many employers will use where you went to school and your college GPA as a screen. If you are not above some level, your resume won’t even get reviewed. Then they will look at other involvement and activities and decide if they would like an interview with you.
Also, most major companies do not recruit from every college in the country - they simply cannot afford to. They go to schools where they know the programs and know the quality of students that are graduating - so getting into a “top school” vs. a “decent” school can have a profound impact on the rest of your life.
In the long run, it is a balance of school work (keeping score by GPA) and other activities (family, faith, volunteering, clubs, teams, etc.) that will allow you to succeed.
The overall grade requirement of 2.5 to apply to the team is only slightly higher than the requirement for sports teams at our high school. We (the coaches) have long maintained that having standards for grades shows the students view on education and its importance to them. When evaluating a student in the application process and find a student that would benifit from being on the FIRST Team but is not meeting the GPA we take the GPA rule to a new level. The student is accepted to the team on provision that grades improve from that point. We provide tutoring if needed and work with the teachers to come up with a plan to solve the learning problems.
There is a major difference in a student that struggles with academics and a student that has a low regard for their education. Both are problems but both have different solutitions.
There is a strong correlation of students with low grades, behavior probems and attendance issues. I think we can all agree that behavior problems and attendance are critical issues for a team member. Dealing with behavior problems of team members will destroy your team flavor, and drive away many great students.
Yes, in my article you can view the GPA requirement as a contridiction to inspiration of a student who could benifit greatly. In the past 12 years as a coach and team leader in FIRST the benifits of the GPA in most cases outweigh the negative. I challenge every student I come in contact with to be a “Life Long Learner”. This can take several forms including college, military and on the job training both formal and informal.
Your GPA in High School and College is a reflection of your cooperation with educational processes, nothing more. It is NOT a measurement of how much you know or how much you can learn.
Being a former high school student on the team I am now a leader of, I understand that FIRST can sometimes cause a drop in grades. However my experience has been that during the build season i have always obtained my highest grades (Average in the fall Marking periods in high school was a 92.2%… in the springs it was an average of 96.5%) I guess the desire to do FIRST made me want to get my work done, because i knew that if i didn’t get it done I wasn’t going to be going to anything.
However, our team does not have this required GPA, which personally seems like a great idea. I would like to implement it onto the team, but im not sure how some of the high school teachers would take this (wether they would be for or against it.)
If you have any suggestions on how to break this to them or get them to join the band wagon please PM me.
I am offended at the thought of academic prerequisites for joining a robotics team, since such a proposal would eliminate me from the program I love the most. Although I do have a B average overall , I am a horrible math student. Case in point, my highest math grade on a test this year was a 75, with the average score being in the 50s. Under some teams policies, this would bar me from joining the team. Based on my expereinces, I agree with Kelly from FRC #1418’s findings, that “the people who belong on the team come to meetings and get things accomplished while the people who don’t belong on the team stop coming.”
This statement is further backed by the average commute time of my team. Due to the nature of my school, students are not from any one neighborhood. Instead, the student body comes from all 5 boros, with 4 of the 5 represented on the SciBorgs. Therefore, the average time is around 75 minutes each way to school. If a student is dedicated enough to leave school after a long night during build season and face that kind of commute home, then they are more than qualified to be a member.
114 has no grade requirement for joining and participating, be it during the build season or at the competitions. This isn’t to say that a student who is failing classes will be able to skip school for 2-3 days to travel to a regional. We have had numerous instances where a student has been pulled from a regional due to lack luster grades, not by the team, but by the students parents. Given that students pay for their own travel fees, it doesn’t put the team into a hole when someone is unable to attend.
