Posted by Ben Chui, Other on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Gunn High School (CAL Berkeley) and Xerox PARC / NASA AMES.
Posted on 3/3/99 1:03 AM MST
Here it is. The arm movement at the time of tipping is autonomous. The gyro is used on the arm for the purpose of maintaining its position under load (the arm fights the force trying to change its position).
Posted by Jerry Eckert, Engineer on team #140 from Tyngsboro, MA High School and New England Prototype/Brooks Automation.
Posted on 3/3/99 7:10 AM MST
In Reply to: Gunn & Napa DQ VIDEO: DECIDE YOURSELF posted by Ben Chui on 3/3/99 1:03 AM MST:
: Here it is. The arm movement at the time of tipping is autonomous. The gyro is used on the arm for the purpose of maintaining its position under load (the arm fights the force trying to change its position).
I haven’t seen the video clip yet, so I can’t offer an opinion on the situation which resulted in the tipping; however, the statement above deserves a comment.
A team is responsible for the behavior of the robot on the floor – whether the actions are
autonomous or a response to direct operator control. The operator control panel should have
a panic switch to immediately disable any automatic action on the robot. This is especially
true if your team was aware the arm was subject to large, uncontrollable oscillations.
- JerryPosted by Thomas A. Frank, Engineer on team #121, The Islanders/Rhode Warrior, from Middletown (RI) High School and Naval Undersea Warfare Center.
Posted on 3/3/99 1:35 PM MST
In Reply to: Re: Gunn & Napa DQ VIDEO: DECIDE YOURSELF posted by Jerry Eckert on 3/3/99 7:10 AM MST:
Hello All;
There is a lesson here, and it may not be one that you want to hear. Jerry is absolutely
correct - if your system can autonomously react, then the action IS intentional by definition;
the designer is responsible for such things.
We avoided the gyros for several reasons; this type of situation is one of them.
I would second the notion of a safety override on the control station to suppress such undesirable
actions.
TAF
Posted by steve kyramarios, Engineer on team #252, Bay Bombers, from Broadway HS and NASA Ames Research Center.
Posted on 3/4/99 1:29 AM MST
In Reply to: Re: Gunn & Napa DQ VIDEO: DECIDE YOURSELF posted by Thomas A. Frank on 3/3/99 1:35 PM MST:
Hello All…
This is my first year as an engineering mentor. I am mentoring the Bay
Bombers and happened to see the match first hand. I would first like to
say that I was very impressed with all the robots at the competition. I
only wish I had the opportunity as a HS student to participate in something
like this.
I also agree with TAF and others that the actions of the robots are the
responsibility of the robot team. The issue that I was most concerned with
was at the beginning of the match, and not captured on the video clip. I
am referring to the incident when Blitz (Bay Bombers) went directly
for his human player. While the human
player was loading Blitz, robot #192 came over and attempted to interfere
with the loading process. I have no problem with this in general, as it
is a valid defense, but I was bothered by the way 192 did this. The arm
of robot 192 engaged the verticle arm of the lifting mechanism (below the
basket). The only effect this can cause is a direct injury to the lifting
system or a tipping of the robot. In my opinion, either of these motives
are inappropriate. I helped engineer a robot that would substain
incidental contact, but not one that would engage in robot wars (however,
this does sound fun).
Anyway, this is only my opinion. The bottom line is that the referees
had their reasons to call the penalty. Other than that, robot 192 is a
piece of art. I really enjoyed talking to the students, coaches, and
engineers at Gunn HS. They were very friendly and knowledgable. In fact,
they provided us with some very useful information the previous day in
regards to our drive motor. Everyone should keep in mind that the competition
is only a small part of the experience. We have
all learned a little more in regards to what the referees will permit and
hopefully this incident will be a moot point at the nationals.
Looking forward to seeing everyone, and their robots, in Florida.
Steve Kyramarios, Team #252/254 (The Bay Bombers…)
Posted by Mike Kulibaba, Student on team #88, TJ², from Bridgewater-Raynham Regional and Johnson and Johnson.
Posted on 3/3/99 1:15 PM MST
In Reply to: Gunn & Napa DQ VIDEO: DECIDE YOURSELF posted by Ben Chui on 3/3/99 1:03 AM MST:
Well I must of watched the video about 3 times and here is what I saw:
The robot that did the tipping(Gunn), I think was trying to get onto the puck while not letting the team that got tipped onto the puck. Thier arm was playing defense while they tried to get onto the puck,it it did a good job of it, then as soon as the Gunn Robot got onto the puck the arm went smashing into the robot that then tipped over. Was it intentional? I don’t think it was, but that is just my opinion and my opinion doesn’t matter, what matters is what the judges saw and this isn’t anything that anyone can do about it.But I would also like to say that the robots in the match seemed to be very good robots and who knows, if they had another match maybe the outcome would de different. Good Luck to all teams and this is why I would hate to be a referee.
Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.
Posted on 3/3/99 1:52 PM MST
In Reply to: Gunn & Napa DQ VIDEO: DECIDE YOURSELF posted by Ben Chui on 3/3/99 1:03 AM MST:
: Here it is. The arm movement at the time of tipping is autonomous. The gyro is used on the arm for the purpose of maintaining its position under load (the arm fights the force trying to change its position).
Actually, to correct Ben, the arm movement that resulted in the tipping of Bay Bombers was not autonomous. The arm will only react when the angle of the robot base is changed in relation to the playing field. The Gyro works perfectly for what we use it for.
Now for the real story, the arm was being moved up and down for the last 30 seconds or so of that match in order to jolt our robot up onto the puck. We were working with our CG. We had to do this because the opposing robot was pinning ours between the puck and the edge of the playing field. Our robot was only able to get up onto the puck after the force from the pinning robot was removed. It was removed because the robot was tipping. If you watch closely, the 192 robot only gets fully onto the puck after the Bay Bombers begin to tip (and then drive their base out from under their own robot).
However, I am not posting this message to dispute the judges call. The judges call is final and our team is well aware of that fact. We are mearly posting this clip to clear the GRT name. Our team is not “unsportsmanlike” as the judges made us out to be. The call is final.
Hope the video cleared things up!
See you in Florida!!
-Daniel Lehrbaum
GRT Student Co-Captain
Posted by Andy Grady, Coach on team #42, P.A.R.T.S, from Alvirne High School and Daniel Webster College.
Posted on 3/3/99 10:10 PM MST
In Reply to: Gunn & Napa DQ VIDEO: DECIDE YOURSELF posted by Ben Chui on 3/3/99 1:03 AM MST:
I looked at the video over and over again. Without seeing the drivers and coaches i wouldn’t be able to tell if the tipping was intentional or not. My observations of this were that the Bay Bombers were not engaging the puck when they lifted up and never did. Nasa Gunn many times lifted there arm up and down, many times catching a part of the Bay Bomber machine. Now the part that caught me was at one point the Gunn robot started to climb the puck and fell back down. They were pinned, however when there machine moved foward that one time the arm caught the Bay Bomber machine and tipped it. Now don’t know if it was intentional or not, however Gunn did use that arm in some forceful situations at times, even knocking a machine cleanly off the puck. I think that the refs saw this earlier and kept an even closer eye on the Gunn machine. When Gunn made the tip, intentional or not, the refs drew the line. This brings me to my question, where should the refs draw the line in contact? I saw a few instances in both regionals that could have been questionable.
Good Luck to all
Andy Grady