Posted by Andy Baker.
Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.
Posted on 2/18/2000 8:01 AM MST
I have some bad news for the teams who were planning on bringing ‘portable machine shops’ (trucks or trailers with fab. equipment) to any 2000 FIRST Competition:
We can’t use them.
FIRST has decided (actually, FIRST’s insurance provider) that teams like us who were planning on bringing a trailer full of nice equipment cannot do so. They decided that it was too difficult to control, and too risky to let happen this year.
From what I heard, there are many insurance and legal issues that cannot be handled before the Competitions arrive. FIRST said that this might happen on 2001, but not 2000.
We were planning on bringing a drill press, belt sander, band saw, welder, mini-mill & mini-lathe.
FIRST knows that this year is not a good year to implement this policy, and they will need to accomodate the extra fabrication demand with their machine shop.
This all translates into three things:
1.Drive the begeebers our of your bot to try to find any defects… but don’t break it too badly.
2.Make plenty of spares now!
3.Wear your safety glasses in the pits, 'cause there will be some major ‘precision alterations’ happening all around you.
Regards,
Andy
Posted by Dodd Stacy.
Engineer on team #95, Lebanon Robotics Team, from Lebanon High School and CRREL/CREARE.
Posted on 2/18/2000 11:56 AM MST
In Reply to: Have Trailer, Can’t use it… Bad News posted by Andy Baker on 2/18/2000 8:01 AM MST:
: FIRST has decided (actually, FIRST’s insurance provider) that teams like us who were planning on bringing a trailer full of nice equipment cannot do so. They decided that it was too difficult to control, and too risky to let happen this year.
: From what I heard, there are many insurance and legal issues that cannot be handled before the Competitions arrive. FIRST said that this might happen on 2001, but not 2000.
: FIRST knows that this year is not a good year to implement this policy, and they will need to accomodate the extra fabrication demand with their machine shop.
!!!: 3.Wear your safety glasses in the pits, 'cause there will be some major ‘precision alterations’ happening all around you.!!!
It may not have been easily foreseeable, but this is becoming a cascading situation. The ironic upshot of FIRST’s 2000 ruling against downtime fabrication of spares, compounded by insurance company lawyer-think, is that the pits are going to be MUCH MORE DANGEROUS places to be this year. Dean, we chuckle each year at your lawyer joke. Where is the ENGINEERING judgement behind this unnecessary situation? This can be changed for the safer - and should be - by a simple stroke of the rules pen. It can happen now, with no harm done to any team or person.
Dodd
Posted by Michael Martus. [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]
Coach on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central H.S. and Delphi Automotives Systems.
Posted on 2/18/2000 3:01 PM MST
In Reply to: Pound Foolish posted by Dodd Stacy on 2/18/2000 11:56 AM MST:
I agree. A simple answer that solves many problems.
What we need to do is FAX our concerns and positions to FIRST. You are right on the money with concerns for dangers in the pits that are generally very small and busy.
We are a accident waiting to happen. All for a simple rule that can be easily changed.
What do others think? FIRST is watching this site on a regular basis. Voice it here, and quick!
Posted by Tony K.
Student on team #292, PantherTech, from Western High School and DaimlerChrysler.
Posted on 2/18/2000 10:03 PM MST
In Reply to: Pound Foolish posted by Dodd Stacy on 2/18/2000 11:56 AM MST:
I guess it’s time to push that Dremel to its limits…
Tony
Posted by Joe Johnson. [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]
Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.
Posted on 2/19/2000 11:32 AM MST
In Reply to: Pound Foolish posted by Dodd Stacy on 2/18/2000 11:56 AM MST:
For those who have not really been paying attention, let me summarize how we ended up in this (what seems to me at least) very strange situation:
Step #1:
California & New England Regionals MUST be on Week 4 – No Flexibility Allowed.
Step #2:
EPCOT Finals MUST be on Week 5 – No Flexibility Allowed.
Step #3:
FIRST must be FAIR - if CA & CT Regionals must ship at 5pm from competition ALL regionals must ship at 5pm from competition. No Flexibility Allowed.
Step #4
Since now the only time to work robots is from Thursday morning until the end of the competition AND FIRST requires only ‘on site’ work AND FIRST allowed ‘on site’ to include in the parking lot, the legal eagles at the insurance company got wind of what has be going on for a while now, specifically, some teams (not including Chief Delphi by the way) have more or less set up mobile machine shops in the parking lot. Because insurance companies provide dollars in the case of a loss, they were naturally not interested in covering more risk. No Flexibility Allowed.
What is the keep thread though all of this?
Let’s all try to be flexible on this one to avoid making a bad situation worse.
Let’s all try to help each other out in the pits even more than usual.
I know that our team will be bringing a bunch of extra ‘bolt in’ type stuff in order to try to be there if someone breaks something that needs machining but the line is too long.
We will get through this.
Joe J.
Posted by Nate Smith.
Other on team #66, GM Powertrain/Willow Run HS, from Eastern Michigan University and GM Powertrain.
Posted on 2/24/2000 8:16 AM MST
In Reply to: Have Trailer, Can’t use it… Bad News posted by Andy Baker on 2/18/2000 8:01 AM MST:
I know this an old thread and nobody will probably see this message, but I just found out the saturday before shipping that our team had been given use of a 2-car gooseneck trailer. I guess it means this…if they’re going to be working on allowing them for 2001, we just get to spend a LOT of time prepping it for next year…
Nate
Posted by Raul.
Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.
Posted on 2/24/2000 8:54 AM MST
In Reply to: And just when we got one too… posted by Nate Smith on 2/24/2000 8:16 AM MST:
We are now planning to bring some power tools to use in the pits that we never did before:
Mini Lathe
Mini Mill
We will also have some sheetmetal tools for making misc. brackets.
Mini Sheetmetal Shear
Mini Sheetmetal Bender
Anything else we think of that might be useful
You are welcomed to come to our pit and use them there as long as you have safety glasses.
I hope FIRST realizes that the new fab rule may cause some undesireable side effects.
Raul
Posted by Joe Johnson. [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]
Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.
Posted on 2/24/2000 9:00 AM MST
In Reply to: Re: And just when we got one too… posted by Raul on 2/24/2000 8:54 AM MST:
Raul,
I have been thinking about doing this for a long time.
Do you have experience with any of the mini-machine tools you mention?
Would you (or anyone out there in FIRST land) please post sources for good value for money equipment?
It is SO hard to judge from a catalog how good/bad the workmanship of a particular tool is.
Let’s continue to help eachother out. The more mini-machine shops we have in the pits, the more work we can all get done.
By the way, what we really need is a mini-aluminum welder that can actually weld aluminum (as apposed to just melting it into a slag heap 
Any ideas?
Joe J.
Posted by Raul.
Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.
Posted on 2/24/2000 2:17 PM MST
In Reply to: Please post Sources posted by Joe Johnson on 2/24/2000 9:00 AM MST:
There are two good sources of good quality and good value machine tools:
Grizzly Imports (www.grizzly.com)
Harbor Freight (www.harborfreight.com)
I have bought many wood working and machine tools for my home shop from them and have never, never had a failure or been disappointed with their products.
One of the retired machinest who works on our robot just bought the mini lathe from Harbor Frieght and is very satisfied with it.
As for the welder, it is difficult to judge MIG welders, especially portable ones. Our expert welder (and I mean he is really good) says that only a TIG welder will do a reliable job on aluminum (especially the thin stuff) and those are not very portable.
Good luck,
Raul
Posted by Thomas A. Frank.
Engineer on team #121, The Islanders/Rhode Warrior, from Middletown (RI) High School and Naval Undersea Warfare Center.
Posted on 2/25/2000 10:33 AM MST
In Reply to: Re: Please post Sources posted by Raul on 2/24/2000 2:17 PM MST:
Hello All;
Another good source for small (and I do mean small) machine tools is Sherline.
http://www.sherline.com
I’ll hopefully be bringing my lathe (it fits into a good sized suitcase), because there is one repair operation on our machine that really requires it.
If you want a nice setup for home use, you can’t beat it. Just appreciate it’s size limitations. You won’t be making 3’ diameter steel pieces on it, not in one weekend!
Tom Frank
P.S. - no financial connection to the company, just a happy owner.