How do you think the ranking point system is working?

Port Hueneme ranking.

Rank Team Rank avg match hanger taxi w-l-t games rank pts

1 1678 3.66 88.83 20.33 22.83 11-1-0 0 12 44
2 4414 3.33 76.83 13.16 26.33 10-1-1 0 12 40
3 359 3.08 70.58 19.08 17.83 9-3-0 0 12 37
4 4415 2.50 61.58 17.33 17.50 8-3-1 0 12 30
5 973 2.25 68.58 12.41 18.00 8-4-0 0 12 27
6 3374 2.25 57.83 11.66 17.83 8-4-0 0 12 27
7 6560 2.16 56.41 12.16 18.66 9-3-0 0 12 26
8 4501 2.08 46.16 14.25 11.00 8-4-0 0 12 25
9 5199 2.00 57.66 14.91 14.83 6-6-0 0 12 24
10 5104 2.00 50.00 10.66 18.00 9-3-0 0 12 24
11 2102 1.91 46.08 7.66 17.83 9-2-1 0 12 23

One team with a 6-6 record ranked higher than some teams with 9 wins. Picking a team with a 6-6 record for an alliance partner might be unwise. Putting it differently, it would be possible to be undefeated with 30 ranking points and be ranked 5 or 6th.

3 Likes

I’d say that ranking points are doing a great job of ranking teams. Here you can see that the rankings are pretty close to the rankings for each team’s OPR. If anything 5199, who had a record of 6-6, should be ranked higher. In my opinion the RP system is doing a good job of letting teams with strong robots earn RP even if they have a hard schedule.

Team OPR OPR Rank Rank Delta
1678 71.41 1 1 0
4414 47.56 2 2 0
359 44.7 3 3 0
973 36.5 4 5 -1
4415 33.75 5 4 1
3374 32.71 6 6 0
5199 32.3 7 9 -2
6560 22.35 8 7 1
5104 18.05 9 10 -1
2102 17.44 10 11 -1
3759 16.5 11 15 -4
5817 16.44 12 12 0
6 Likes

Considering 21/22 events have been won by the 1 alliance so far and exclusively 2 and 3 alliances have joined them in the finals, I’d say pretty well.

Alliance # W F % W % F
1 22 0 95.65% 0.00%
2 0 19 0.00% 82.61%
3 0 4 0.00% 17.39%
4 1 0 4.35% 0.00%
5 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
6 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
7 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
8 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
17 Likes

Looks like they were picked 4th in the draft though? And went 2-0-0 in quarters and only lost to 1678 and 4414 (the top 2 ranked and OPR robots at the event and its eventual winners) in semis. They were 7th in OPR there — and I, some random person a continent away, know 4 of the 6 teams above them (Cirtus, HighTide, 359, and Greybots). If anything it seems like the system might’ve ranked them a little low, actually, but overall I’d say it’s working really well.

8 Likes

Looks like it is working as intended.

In the exact situation that you posted, the 6-6 team has a higher match avg, hangar avg, and auto avg than the 8-4 team that got one more RP. They also have a higher match avg, hangar avg, and fairly close auto avg to the two 9 win teams ranked behind them. Sounds to me like a high ranked 6-6 team identified the valuable scoring aspects early on in the season and built for them well. Not to mention, they do in fact score just as well as the 9 win teams. WLT is not something I usually figure in to my alliance selection choices for this exact reason.

2 Likes

RPs are supposed to help you out when you’ve been unlucky with who you’ve drawn with your opponents. Lets consider 2 teams here:

5199 - 6-6, 24 RP
2102 - 9-2-1, 23 RP

There were some super strong teams at this event - let’s take the top 3 - 1678, 4414, and 359.

5199 played with 359, 4414
5199 played against 4414, 359, 359, 1678, 1678

2102 played with 1678, 4414, 359
2102 played against 359, 1678

5199 clearly had the tougher schedule, so RP helps them out in this case.

9 Likes

It is really sad , some teams don’t scout enough, as to rely on Ranking Points that have NO bearing in Eliminations

3 Likes

Clarification, please? What part of the RP system do you mean to say has no bearing on Playoffs?

RP “extras” as in points , do not exist. So judging on “Rank” may be misleading

As a scout at heart, Rank has no meaning. What that team adds to the mix, is meaning.

1 Like

Judging based off win/loss is equally misleading. This is just the nature of FRC - with 3 random teams on an alliance, you can’t just look at any top level stat and make alliance selections based on that. Agreed that what “a team adds to the mix” is the key, but there will be no ranking criteria which will sort what “a team adds to the mix” in quals as long as we are only playing <=12 matches.

I still think RP is slightly better than W/L, since you at least have some ability to get something for a good game when you are against better opponents. And, if you’re against weak opponents, you have the opportunity to play a good game and get even more than a win.

4 Likes

I believe that the ranking point system is working well for sorting week 1 competitions. I fear that as the season progresses and teams performances improve that the “bonus” ranking points for climbing and 18/20 balls will become relatively common place and the rankings will fall back to win loss tie rankings.

Where did you get this stat from?

1 Like

The blue alliance, go to event stats, then filter

Sounds like the higher ranked teams had different criteria/data that informed their scouting decisions.

7 Likes

Not to sidetrack this discussion too much, but I think the CCWM values on the TBA Stats page might be being calculated incorrectly. The formula CCWM = OPR - DPR should be true for every team and it is not for a few teams I checked at Hueneme Port, for example, on the TBA App, 1678 has an OPR of 71.41 and a DPR of 9.44. Thus we would expect their CCWM to be 71.41-9.44=61.97, but it is listed as 33.98 on the TBA App. This tells me that at least one of OPR, DPR, or CCWM are being calculated incorrectly.

1 Like

Another thing to note is this event schedule clearly valued time between matches more than schedule diversity, with some teams playing citrus, us or 359 more than once (I think one team even played citrus back to back?) and others not touching any of us. I would love a pure W/L ranking system but you probably need a few dozen matches for it to become a reliable form of ranking.

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We played against 973 3 times, 1678 once, 4414 with 973, 5199 twice and 4415.
I thought our match schedule was pretty brutal to say the least.

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The point break for the ball RP is going to be considered too low at championship, and unlike previous years there is not a provision in the rules to raise it,

So at championships it is almost a guarantee any randomly generated alliance will get both RPs every match, meaning they don’t really do anything but cost you in the event you get very unlucky (a fall for instance). Traditionally unlucky alliances are a part of every year, but its really not helpful in years when almost EVERY alliance will be getting them both every match.

The ball RP needs to be raised in order for it to function as intended. 30 seems fair for champs.

1 Like

It could happen. The rules change in small and big ways every week.

It seems consistently that in qualifying, defense isn’t that important, but in elimination, it might be a factor. The way to win in FIRST is to outscore the other alliance. You do this by putting scoring more cargo while inhibiting your opponents. So your third alliance pick should be able to run defense on your opponents top scorer. Good luck with that. Try running defense against 1678 or 359. They have fast swerve drives and can score from anywhere on the field. So even you lower their efficiency by 50%, they still end up outscoring you 80 to 50.

So, I expect very few upsets during eliminations this season, at Port Huemene, only one elimination match required a tie breaker, and the higher seed always won.

1 Like