How far could a climbing specialist go?

Thought experiment!

Team 0 built a robot designed to do one thing, and do it well: Maximize HAB points.
They’ve built a robot that has a smooth, reliable mechanism to lift itself to HAB Level 3 height and slide the frame onto the platform.
Their robot was built with the ability to deploy wide outriggers that any team who could climb up the Level 1 HAB ramp would be able to mount. Those outriggers can support up to two additional partners who ride with them for endgame points.
They’ve even figured out how to counterbalance their robot, using the Level 3 walls for stability, so that they could successfully climb even if only one partner can join them for a ride.

Figuring out how to do all that took the entire build season. Their robot doesn’t have any room for a cargo manipulator or hatch panel manipulator.
Team 0 plans to play defense until a minute remains in matches, then set up for a climb.

Here’s the question for you all:
Where do you think Team 0 would seed at an event? Do you think Team 0 would be picked for the playoffs, and if so, when? Do you think Team 0’s alliance could advance in the playoffs?

Bonus question:
Team 0, with the help of some cheesecake, added a minimalist Hatch panel manipulator that can load from the feeder station and score panels at the lowest scoring position. They could now play defense or assist with low-tier scoring until it’s time to climb.
Does that change your answer above, and how?

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Greatly. That makes them worthwhile to me imo, otherwise, they are going to end up like 2605 at Mount Vernon last year (no offense to them.) Seed high, out early.

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12-36 points will probably pull their weight for most alliances for at least the first few weeks, especially if they’re also a decent defense robot, winning alliances will probably have a defense bot on their team. If they get top 8 I see them having some troubles with getting good picks to compliment them, but once we get to District Champs or Worlds I see that problem somewhat going away.
With being basically guaranteed 1 ranking point per match I see a quarter to a half of the top 8 seeds being able to level 3 climb, so I think it’ll be interesting tournaments.

tl;dr: Getting High seeds? Probably. Winning the competitions? Maybe, 36 points is a lot of points, especially if you can pick good hatch/cargo bots to compliment. It’s certainly going to be interesting to see it play out.

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If the triple climb is reliable, I could see them being a first round pick if they aren’t the number 1 seed themselves. Definitely add a very simple hatch mechanism if needed but will likely be the defense bot during teleop. As we get to the later weeks though, the defense will need to improve to match improved scoring by other robots. Otherwise, the team will likely end up in a lower seeded alliance which could be good or bad.

Consistency is the key though. If the triple climb only works half the time, you are losing half your elim matches.

As for Team 0 they would probably do well enough to be picked based on their build. Teams in the top seeded alliance will love that if you are placed low 30s in ranking points. Now you don’t necessarily need to manipulate panels, you can actually just grab hatch panels and cargo and place them at low levels that the robot can reach with the cargo or hatch in a stationary position. If it takes a minute to set up for climb honestly it isn’t a good situation, something more like 30 sec should be more appropriate for the full operation of climbing. Try checking out videos from Power Up where 2 robots climbed on one like you mentioned, not the same way but I think it’s the similar process you mentioned. Team 0 would be picked for playoffs even if it takes the last minute of the match to set up before 30sec before the end of the match. Simply because they can earn the team more than twice as much ranking points for climbing it being 15HAB Climb points for 1 ranking point your total of course being 36HAB Climb points. I am a little leery about it advancing in playoffs because you have to have the most points and not the most ranking points, basically you have to win the match by match points which it could win based on what the top seeded or alliance robots can do along with you. But yes Team 0 could advance in playoffs based on the alliance it is with. Now as of your bonus question fully since we’ve been switching back and forth, yes my decision would be changed, you would have greater possibility in being picked, having a higher seed and winning a competition even if you are only operating/manipulating Cargo and operating hatches, defense is great but it doesn’t add points and it can’t be something you do all the time, occasional matches are alright as long as you add points.

Team 0 is gonna have more blue banners than us this year!

I think this robot would absolutely dominate early events and would be viable all the way through champs depending on if the defense was effective or not.

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36 points every game is huge. If this robot starts on L2 they make 42 points without scoring any game piece. It’s enough to win most qual matches and destroy most alliances in finals when paired with a descent low scorer

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The only conceivable way I see to beat Team 0 is to block them from returning to their own alliance’s half when they’re trying to come back from playing defense, or at least slow them down enough such that they don’t have enough time to set up their triple climb or even climb to level 3 at all.

That being said though, if Team 0 got some good driver practice in on how to avoid defense, they will probably end up winning most of their matches simply because of the leverage of a 36 pt climb in any match, considering the relatively low point values for HPs and cargo.

I would be both insanely impressed and surprised to see a robot that could get a 36 point endgame and also have no other mechanisms.

1 Like

That would be a world championship bot. We theorized this concept because it would do mediocre in quals but it would destroy elims hands down. There is almost no way to beat it in elims.

The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry…
While the OP here states a 1 min. climb setup, some thought 20 seconds to be too long. The yet un-answered question, in those last seconds, what scoring would be complete beyond an addition 12 or 24 total?

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Channeling my inner Car Nack:
The majority of qualification matches in weeks 1-4 will be won with a score of 20 or less.
This design would probably go undefeated, with an average RP of 3.16.

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Team 0 would seed in the top 3-4 at 90% of events this season.

Car Nack you are not.

Do you really think teams won’t be able drive off level 2 at the beginning or onto Level 1 at the end? Let’s assume 1 of three teams can jump off level 2 and the other two drive forward. That’s 12 points. Now let’s assume they can all drive back onto level 1. They’re up to 21 points.

There’s absolutely no way the quoted statement is accurate.

5 Likes

Able to and willing to are two totally separate things.

Still, that’s assuming not a single team scores a single game piece. I completely agree teams are bad at this game… but I have a little more confidence than that.

My take: this bot will seed high, but meet an early out in elims due to inflexibility.

The gross point gain of this team to an alliance is between 12 (their L3) and 30 (their L3 plus lifting 2 bots from L1). Yet the net point gain is quite different when comparing to other scenarios, such as single-bot L3 lifts that take less time.

Calculating the net point value over the most-common L3 climber

Say the 3-bot climber takes 1 minute to line up, allow partners on, and gross 30 points. In the same time (60 seconds), a single L3 climber with similar partners can also gross easily gross 25-30 points.
  • 3-5 cycles’ worth of game pieces. 2-3 Hatch + 1-2 Cargo = 7-12 points
  • 1 L3 HAB = 12 points
  • 2 partners on L1 = 6 points

But wait! There’s more!
The 3-bot climber cannot net more points than the single-bot climber in the sandstorm period. All the 1-bot climber has to do is drive straight and place a single hatch on the closest cargo bay to make up any potential difference.

Also, if

Their robot doesn’t have any room for a cargo manipulator or hatch panel manipulator

Then a hatch mechanism cannot be part of Cheesecake.

A team that can do a consistent double or triple level 3 [SIC oops was L2] climb is going to seed high because the RP that comes with it. it should be able to start on level 3 as well. There point are almost impossible to defend against. Until they drop a robot on its side. That would be bad.

My thought is team 0 doesn’t have any advantage on the Hab RP over other Hab 3 robots. So it’s ability to rank high is going to be based on what assumptions you want to make about the percentage of robots capable of hab 3 are at the event, how effective you think it’s defense will be, and how many robots will not make it back to hab 1.

If the event has 10+ robots doing hab 3, team 0 has to win matches to be an alliance captain. The hab RP won’t bail them out (otherwise it will).

If they can play effective defense (eliminate 30% of their opponent cycles) they have to run into an alliance with a fairly sizable cycle advantage to get their hab lead over run but ti can happen.

If the event only has a handful of robots not getting back to hab 1, they can avoid losing their big hab bonuses. If that number becomes big they are probably going to eat some losses.

In short, team 0 is likely to be schedule dependent if the number of hab 3 robots is large enough at the event - very schedule dependent if the non-hab 1 robot population is also significant.

My guess is any cheese-caked mechanism won’t be as valuable as their defense.

Only district championship and championship events will have 10+ level 3 hab capable teams. And not even every DCMP or CMP division will have 10 capable of doing it reliably.

1 Like