How good are the top tier teams? Will they carry 2 people up every match? Will we not see any this season?
195 showed a prototype of it last night in the FUN podcast
For anyone who missed it:
I’m going to guess 1. I don’t know.
The double crane lift from 195 is interesting, but I’m skeptical that it will work in practice. You notice that this was still a prototype. Given the limited amount of space on top of lvl3 and the practicalities of getting up there, I think we’re going to see only a very limited number of multiple climbs. Many of these are likely to be two bots that can do it independently and both manage to fit on (or be supported by) the platform. The buddy lifts that we saw in PowerUp! are going to be much harder and will thus be much rarer.
Not to mention it is not nessisary for the ranking point.
True that it isnt necessary for the ranking point, but definitely important when trying to win an event during eliminations.
I hope the team that showed one way of having 2 robots on level 3, unveils it to everyone else. Its an idea I think most elite teams would dismiss, but amazing how they are actually able to do it.
I have to believe that a few teams will at least attempt it, because the potential reward is huge. To get 36 points (~14 cycles) in under 30 seconds could make an alliance potentially nearly unbeatable.
For a more direct comparison, the max an unassisted alliance could get would be 24 points (6 + 6 + 12). They would have to outcycle them by at least 5 in order to pull ahead.
Not sure I’d want our robot to get hooked by a mechanism such as that shown on the 195 prototype. There appears to be just too many chances to damage some part of the robot.
I saw the 195 idea but I was concerned by the not only the precarious nature of the climb but the size profiles of the robots . The demo had 2 very small robots which had a fairly low center of mass. Another factor that is very crucial is that they were already on the lvl 2 platform which as seen by previous polls is not a large factor is many teams design plans.
The main problem I see with a two robot lift (using platforms/winches/RobotWranglers/etc on either side of a robot) this year is the difficulty or even inability to climb with only one robot. If one of your partners dies during the match, your mechanism has to be able to lift a single robot, and then support that robot without the counterbalance from your dead or otherwise occupied partner. Of course, there are ways to compensate for this (suction cups, clever ramp/lift positioning, etc) but the Hab 3 platform presents a less hospitable environment than the PowerUp rung and the uneven face below it that could be used to counterbalance.
A big risk in multiple climbs this year is that it has the potential to eliminate the first climb. My suspicion is we will end up seeing if any percentage of weight of a robot >0 is transferred to ground through another robot then the second robot will be considered to be supporting the first robot.
A robot trying to cram onto the platform with another robot runs the risk of coming up short and being declared to be supporting the first robot.
I can see double happening reasonably often, since you can have teams lean half of their robot off the side like triple balances in 2012. Heck with some of the L3 climbers I have seen so far you could use the climber like a 2012 stinger.
The top tier will always be the top tier; they will at least put considerable thought into going for every possible point. Yet just like 2013, I don’t know that going for every possible point is worth it this year. Tough to say.
I honestly don’t think it is worth it unless you design your entire robot behind the idea of just getting 3 robots to lvl 3, even there I don’t think people are going to even try much less accomplish it. I don’t think there will be a single one.
Getting yourself onto level 3 is one thing. Controlling yourself on level 3 is something different entirely. First of all, the entire mechanism supporting yourself has to be at least semi-retractable. If a team wants to raise two bots, it’s going to be exceptionally difficult in order to do so and do everything else on the field. Raising themselves and a partner, though, I think is doable, but only with a mechanism similar to RoboWrangler’s climber last year. However, a team that wants to go ultra small might see success in alliance selection due to the ease of getting them up to level 3.
A few of us spent the first few days of build season taking a good, hard look at getting three up to level three. There were simply too many problems - the 30" extension limit, for example. Our biggest concern was that if an alliance member didn’t make it back in time - in that case, you’d have serious problems with unbalanced torques. In PowerUp you were hanging off a bar, so you could swing. But in Deep Space you need to push yourself off the ground, so you are going to have tipping problems if only one robot gets on to climb.
I agree with your math, where I think it gets more gray is when you start to think about the difference in required time and coordination.
30 seconds is cutting it close, I helped coordinate attempted triple climbs last season on my team and it was a nightmare more often than not. My team would often dedicate anywhere between 45-50 seconds to get one team on, sometimes have both try and then take the first one to get on our mechanism up with us. We built spare fork assemblies for teams to practice with, it didn’t help much.
I think that the triple climb is much harder to facilitate this year and the reward is a bit lower.
I would bet that most teams that are trying to design specialized mechanisms for the endgame will likely put effort into consuming a minimum area of the platform rather than attempted to interface with other unknown robots. It’s easier and you can control your own destiny a bit better.
2 level 3 solo climbs accomplished quickly can easily balance out a triple lift with far less stress and coordination required. We’ll see, but I’m looking forward to seeing how it actually plays out.
This is what our team has based it’s entire design around. We’re going all in on trying to carry two robots with us to the 3rd level.
Maybe if there was an independent climb system like ours last year, we hung off the bar and provided more bars for our team members to hang off of us. maybe a fold out platform would work, but it doesn’t seem worth building one to me. maybe a cheesecake grapple winch, but then there’s the deal with being pulled off the top. Would need some kind of brake.
Our climber in action, apparently it was the first in the world or something. Skip to 2:00 to for the climb.