At one of our districts, we were in match 4, and ended up having 2 partners break during the match. We lost, and had to play in match 6 with the quick turnaround. Reading the rules, I found rule 10.6.2, specifically:
The expected start time of the scheduled MATCH is the time indicated on the MATCH schedule or 15 minutes from the end of either ALLIANCE’S previous MATCH, whichever is later.
If we need to invoke this rule, how do we ask the head ref to start this process? The big problem I see is how do we acknowledge the start of the 15 minutes. Do we walk to the head ref and start a phone timer (or note the start time)? Can they look at the FMS data to know when the match ended? (I know the FIRST API reports the submission time too, but that data is not publicly viewable)
In 2023, they had the 8 minute breaks to force the 15 minute gap, but they removed the breaks in 2024. Is it our job as alliances to ask for that break now?
Comparing the 2023 and 2024 manuals (the “Playoff MATCH Bracket” section in both) I see that 2024 has slightly less built in breaks shown in the table, but none were between match 4 and 6 and it looks like blue alliance should already be a 15 minute gap.
The 15-minute time between matches for teams is built into the double-elimination schedule from the beginning based on how the matches themselves are scheduled.
The playoffs are run on 9 minute “cycles”, which is to say that the time from the start of Match N to the start of Match N+1 is 9 minutes.
If Match 4 is scheduled to start at 13:30, Match 5 will be scheduled for 13:39 and Match 6 will be scheduled for 13:48.
Matches take approximately 3 minutes, so with a 13:30 start you are done at 13:33 (actually a little sooner, as matches are ~2:20 long, but scores are likely posting and the field going green around the 3-minute mark)
Based on that, the gap from when your previous match ended (13:33) to the start of your next match (13:48) is 15-minutes long.
In cases where a team is playing back to back matches, you can’t organically have a 15-minute break because there is no intervening match, so we instead schedule a 15-minute awards break[1].
The only time a team would be getting less than 15 minutes in a normal playoff flow is if the intervening matches (Match 5 in my example above) is started early, at which point the 6 minute gap from the end of 4 to the start of 5 is shorter.
If you feel like you didn’t get enough time between matches that’s something that should be raised with the FTA and Head Referee at an event, although it’s hard to measure or notice in the moment if the difference is only a minute or two. But in general this isn’t meant to be something you have to ask for, moreso that it’s guaranteed by the rule and written into the overall playoff event schedule.
[1] - Unrelated to the above, but I have never understood why we put a 6-minute break between matches 10 and 11. The winning alliance from 10 would organically already have a 15-minute break going from 10 → 12 without the break. My best guess is that we don’t want to ask teams to do that twice, going 8 → 10 → 12, but I’ve never seen that acknowledged anywhere.
I don’t remember off the top of my head. I also wanted to say the head ref was really forgiving in this time, let us turn in a backup coupon probably a little late, and was nice in letting us take our time back. I have no direct issue with how the head ref/event staff handled the situation, only the schedule/rules as they were currently written. (I forgot to put that in my first post)
The issue is the 2024 schedule doesn’t take the 15 minute break anymore. If you play in match 4, you finish the match (in 2022, the last robot to leave the field started the 15 min timer, not sure if that is still the rule), then field reset, team introductions, then play a match (5), then reset for match 6. Most of the time, it’s in the 8-9 minute mark as suggested above. On top of that, the head ref gets pressure from the event staff (unfairly) to keep the playoffs running quickly, as everyone wants to get home from the long weekend. I’ve never seen an event wait to follow the match schedule timing, it’s usually hurry up to finish at a reasonable time.
I was curious, so I went to the FIRST API (as I run our scouting site too, I have access), our match 4 had results posted at 2:36:02pm, then match 6 started at 2:52:41pm, so we got 16:39 between posting and starting, not counting team introductions, field connection, etc… This counts the time we were given to find the backup team (the event coordinators made US load another team backup robot on the field as they found their drive team), plus the walks back and forth from the field, and what little repair time we were given.
I guess, my request is finding a way to make it easier for teams to understand this timing. We were super stressed and flustered with this quick turnaround time, and it felt really unfair to expect teams to handle this situation without knowing this rule.
During the alliance captain meeting, the Head Ref and FTA emphasize that they are available any time during playoff with questions. I’d recommend using them if you have questions.
Just as an FYI the time to get to and from the field is part of your 15 minutes.
At events where the field is far away from pits the venue can choose to move them closer. I will say regardless of the location of the pits we always follow the rule that if someone on the alliance broke during the match you get them off the field first. This to maximize their time to do repairs as the timer does not start until we all are off the field and it prevents them from getting stuck behind someone else on the alliance.
As a part of this, the rule is 15 minutes until the expected start time of the match. So that time is meant to include time to load onto the field, get connected, and do team introductions. It is not meant to give teams 15 uninterrupted minutes to repair the robot before coming to the field.
This is something that should be raised/asked about the Drivers Meeting post-alliance selection if that’s the case. The schedule is designed and timed to protect a team’s right to get the 15 minutes as written in 10.6.2.
I’ve FTA’d a handful of events under the 2023 and then 2024 rules, and at almost every event I have waited at least once to start a playoff match in order to make sure we didn’t run ahead of schedule and shorten the amount of times teams have.
So, I ran a script that pulled the data between match 4 posting results, and match 6 start times from the FMS (also the deltas between match 7-9, and 8-10, as this same 15 minute issue comes up), and this is my report. This is for only districts/regionals that have good data from the API, which I count as 152 events.
34 matches between 4-6 had a gap less then 15 minutes, also 45 between 7-9, and 26 between 8-10. One event had a gap of 10:50! (MAWOR)
While I agree the schedule should address it, it obviously is not doing it’s job.
On that note, here are 82 playoff matches this season that started before their scheduled time (8 of which were match 1, so 74 were too early past the first). 10 of which were at worlds.
One note on that: if all teams are on the field and ready to go, there’s nothing saying the match can’t start early. It’s entirely possible that everybody was lined up and ready to go, so the match just started.
If I were you, I’d notify the Team Advocate that this can and does happen, with data, and ask how that can be resolved.
I agree in principle with what is said here. In practice, that’s not how it happens (I will only use the finals example here).
In finals, the match plays, then after the scores are posted (or the last robot loads off in 2022, not sure what the proper rule is actually), the head ref starts a 15 minute timer for the next match. If the announcers are nice, they give a 2 min, 1 min remaining announcement, but then the expectation is you are making “a good faith effort” to head to the field when the timer hits zero as defined in G301.
For these finals matches, you are effectively given 15 solid minutes to look at you robot, then the necessary time to have it connect to the field and team introductions. That’s why I think you should be able to ask for the 15 full minutes from match results until you load on to the field.
I’m going to push back on this, quite hard I’m afraid.
Re-read G301. You will find that the expectation is that you be ON THE FIELD and ready to play. That, my friend, is the expectation. Not “be moving towards the field”. Not “be leaving the pit”. Not “be working on remounting parts at the field”. Be on the field and ready to play. It’s right there in the rule.
The penalty point is if you are not making a good-faith effort when T=0. One of the possible elements of said good-faith effort is that the HR can see you from their station as you move towards the field. In other words, if you accidentally miss but are trying to get there and are close, you’re OK. If you’re not connected to the field, but field staff and you are teaming up to fix that, you’re OK (and that’s somewhat out of your control anyways). If you start moving from the next building over at T=1s, you’re not making a good-faith effort, and you’ll be finishing your robot fix during the match you were trying to make.
G301 *Be prompt. A DRIVE TEAM member may not cause significant delays to the start of their MATCH.
Causing a significant delay requires both of the following to be true:
A. The expected MATCH start time has passed, and
B. The DRIVE TEAM has access to the FIELD and is neither MATCH ready nor making a good faith
effort, as perceived by the Head REFEREE, to quickly become MATCH ready.
If the match start time has passed, but the team is making a “good faith effort” to become match ready (which would include, per blue box item A, “walking safely towards the FIELD with a ROBOT that a team is not actively
modifying”), then only one of the conditions is satisfied and therefore this should not be considered a “significant delay”
Even when there isn’t a widely-visible timer running (like there is in the field timeout use case between finals matches), the Head Referee panel has a timer counting down to the next match that’s based on when the previous match ended/scores were posted/field went green (I don’t remember what exactly starters the timer of the 3, I want to say green?). That’s the timer that’s used by the Head Referee to determine if we have passed the expected match start time.
While a team may be asked to come to the field earlier by queuing/field staff (because the goal is to be match ready when that timer hits 0 so the match can start on time, even if often it doesn’t occur and we’re instead going into the “making a good faith effort” clause of G301) in non-Finals matches, the rules regarding what a team needs to do aren’t changing. And I think it would be perfectly reasonable for a team to ask how much time they have left until the expected match start time.
Answer: at their station, which is right in front of the scoring table. Got that? If you are not visible to the HR, you are, de facto, not making a good faith effort. Everybody clear?
So. You leave your pit, which is probably not in line of sight of the HR, at T=1second. Are you making a good-faith effort?
No. The HR doesn’t see you, you’re not making a good-faith effort. Warning, 2-minute timer, be making that good-faith effort at the end of same or be disabled for your match. (I will note that many HRs seem to be making a concerted effort to see said good-faith efforts at T=0 or before.)
Again, the intent (for those that read the blue box and other similar literature) is that teams be on the field and ready to go at match time. For those actively working towards that goal, leeway is allowed. For those that are stalling, there’s a defined penalty sequence.
I didn’t know about the head ref timer, if they can see the time that the alliance last played, I think that is the most ideal situation. I understand why they don’t want that timer published for most rounds. But if we as an alliance can ask the ref to check that time between quick rounds, I think that is a suitable solution. My fear is that timer only goes 1 match back, not 2 like we would need in playoffs.
Unrelated, this document does answer one question I had too, if a team got a verbal warning in qualifications, do those carry over to playoffs. The answer is YES, unlike yellow cards that were wiped away. In an offseason event, one of our partners hopped over the wall entering the field for a second time (in a rush, as they were pulled up as a backup). Our alliance got a yellow card for that, which at the time I thought was unfair as the first violation was not as an alliance. But seeing that clarification, even if not in the formal rules, just makes me acknowledge we were treated correctly. (and I’m glad if refs give us penalties if we deserve them, I replayed the stream, and the team definitely hopped the fence)
It does only go one match back (so the timer for M6 beginning is based on the end time for M5), but so long as prior matches are not started ahead of schedule that’s a non-issue. As far as if teams know that they can ask the ref to check that? The vast majority probably don’t know to ask the head ref to see that timer, but even if it’s never mentioned explicitly I’ve had many teams come up and ask how much time they have left before they need to be at the field (and in cases where teams are working on repairs I’ve seen the FTA/HR work together to make sure teams know where they stand).
To go back to an earlier comment, if this is a concern at events I think it’s 100% worth asking about/bringing up with the Head Ref either in the post-alliance selection meeting or in the question box at any point.
And separately, it’s likely worth reaching out to FIRST if they can take steps to either increase the visibility of remaining time or otherwise ask for them to help prevent cases where teams might be rushed to the field ahead of schedule (as @EricH mentioned here). Looking online I can’t find contact information for the FRC Team Advocate (EDIT: From a post down thread, [email protected]), but there is a general email for FRC teams available at [email protected] that might be able to connect you with the right group if you write them with your concerns. I don’t say this to be dismissive, but because if the goal is to change processes for the future that will need to come from FIRST.
The timer is actually displayed in a few places - all ref tablets will show it, and the back side of the timer display (the one that shows match time during the matches) on each end of the field also display it. Plus the audience display can show it, though depending on your events configuration that may or may not be visible. You should always be able to freely access one or more of those.
The head ref doesn’t actually start the timer, nor can they easily see when your last match “ended”. Scorekeepers (the ones sitting at the computer) do that and they receive training on when to start the timer. I’m not 100% what the wording on that is, but the ones I’ve watched wait until the last robot is off the field.
The right email is frcteamadvocate at firstinspires. Ironically, I sent them an email about this middle of May, and got a response that they will at least consider it and discuss it (about all I can ask). This was just reinitiated by reading the rules about something else and finding that section in 10.6.2, confirming we are still supposed to get 15 minutes per match minimum, part of the goal of the double elimination tournament when it was introduced after 2022.
I also got an answer I was kinda looking for here, if someone breaks down in our match, and we are in a quick turnaround situation, we should head to the question box after the first match of the gap and negotiate a time to return by (roughly 15 minutes after).
This is all a side note, I know, but that is in the formal rules, top of page 50 in the 2024 rules, “Verbal warnings are cleared after Practice MATCHES and persist from Qualification MATCHES through subsequent tournament phases.” I mean, the section is titled “Yellow and Red Cards” (and one may be distracted by a graphic that’s been out of date for a couple years), so I can see why it’d be easy to miss, but in theory any handouts aren’t adding anything to the manual, they’re just a review of the rules that many drive teams don’t have committed to memory.
