Hi, this is my first post.
I’m a freshman on a very underfunded team. We have been a team since 2004 and only have gotten selected for an alliance once. That happened in in the mid 2000’s. Our team is really small and barely has any money. We went to Ne District Granite State and finished ranked 31st. This was a huge success for us, when we usually place last. Our robot places gear and climbs, but we didn’t get selected while other robots that can’t climb did. Is my team missing something? We were better than a quarter of the teams that got selected. We have NE District Southern NH coming up in a few weeks, so we are using our unbag time to make improvements to our robot.
I really want to get selected. Is there any strategy we should be using? It seems like we are missing something other teams do.
Thanks!
The best way to get picked, other than having a robot worth picking, is asking teams that are usually in the top 8 for help. There is always room for improvement, and by having them help you, you guys get in their mind, and you will learn things you can apply to future robots.
For a second pick, the top teams would be very interested in a team like yours which has very consistent climbing, and some gear ability. Their scouts are definitely writing down whether your robot has climbed or not, and they may be noting some qualitative things like driver skill.
In this year’s game, if your robot can do gears and climb, you can even seed near the top 8 with good driver practice. If your robot doesn’t need that many repairs, I would recommend asking a local team with a practice field if you can use their field. Even with only 2 hours of driver practice, your robot’s performance can improve significantly.
Back to the main topic. Consistency is key. The top ranked teams at all events this year are worried that their alliances won’t be able to get 3 consistent climbs, and thus will lose in the quarterfinals. At your event, make sure to have a 100% climb rate, at least on the last day of qualifications. Talk to these top teams and show their scouts data or even video evidence, but make sure the data backs up your argument. Someone will pick you if you do this.
Getting picked is really all about standing out from the crowd. Most teams in picking position spend their Friday nights of their events going through all the teams and the event and generating a pick list, which puts all the teams in order of “want to pick the most” to “want to pick the least.” Having done this multiple times through multiple games, it’s very hard to remember each individual robot once you get into the midfield of teams. It’s rather easy to remember the top 10-12 teams, but after that it feels like all the other robots are almost the same. Having a unique design, color on your robot, doing something especially interesting in one of your matches, etc will help you stand out.
Additionally, if I were your team, I wouldn’t wait on hoping to be picked. Talk to other teams, build connections in your qualification matches and work hard to mesh well with other teams, they will definitely remember who they like working with. In many cases, alliances are decided before any team reps hit the field, teams reach out and communicate to other teams they want to work with before alliance selections take place. Rub elbows, make friends, and ALWAYS be a good alliance partner.
I’d also just like to add that better and worse are very subjective. You mentioned you felt that your robot was better than many robots that got picked, but if I’m first seed, and I can max out my primary scoring method, why would I pick anyone else that does the same thing I do? There is a lot of complex strategy that goes into alliance selections, and just because you may not see the value in their choices doesn’t mean it doesn’t hold any value to them.
Hope this helps!
This is a year where a kit drivetrain with a box on top of it can be a top seed after quals. If you have a kit drivetrain with a box, and then you add a climber? You might just be a top team at the event.
You are already doing the tasks that you need to in order to be successful. If you want to get selected, there’s a very doable way to make that happen: climb every match. If you can place some Gears and you literally never fail to climb, you’ll get picked. If you can place 4 or more Gears you might find yourself getting picked pretty early. I would spend all of your unbag time ensuring that you never fail to climb.
Another thing I would add to this: I understand your team is small, but you’re never too small for a marketing campaign. I would make a wearable sandwich board with your “successful climb counter”. Every time you successfully climb, you add a tally mark. Ask your event’s MC if they will wear the board while announcing your team. 4607 did this in 2013 and it helped us bring a lot of attention to our team. Creating hype and bringing attention to your accomplishments will go a long way towards getting drafted.
The best way for your team to get picked is to create good relationships. Find teams that are willing to use their precious time to help you with something. You may want to consider making deals such as, “you can cheesecake my robot if you pick me” Otherwise just be as kind as possible, play your best, and keep a good track of your team’s statistics to show other teams who are looking for someone to pick.
Best of luck at your next competition!
-5980
How did those alliance do? IMHO, a winning alliance will need 3 climbing bots. If a bot can’t climb, then it better be able to keep another bot from climbing. 50 points is too many to give up.
For a 2nd pick bot, IMHO, the desired attributes are:
- Is it reliable (doesn’t break down)
- Can it climb
- Can it defend (bot, and good driver)
- Can it place a gear in Autonomous
- Can it shoot, especially in Autonomus (shooting is the tie breaker for 3 rotors/3 climbers).
One exception to the Climbing ability is for 2 great gear robots picking a 3rd great gear robot. I’d give up one climbing robot if I am virtually guaranteed getting 4 rotors spinning (+140 points in the playoffs).
If your robot has the desirable attributes, the first thing in the morning of Day 2, send out your drive team to make friends with the top 12 ranked teams at the end of day 1. Talk with the other drive teams and pass out a day 1 summary of your robot (climbed x out of y matches, placed an average of z gears per match, etc.). You might generate enough interest for the teams to watch your last few matches.
I just watched a few of your matches (Q67, Q58, and Q10 specifically) and you have a decent robot. My best advice for out of bag is to just use the time for driver practice. Try to simulate the field as best as you can (especially the obstructed view). If you can show that you can consistently do gears well and climb, you will definitely be a desirable 3rd pick. Also, make your rope out of something with a higher strength rating (I’d aim for at least 3 times the max force you expect it to be under). Otherwise, just aim to be as consistent as possible and don’t get discouraged.
Side Note: For future years, I would strongly suggest staying away from mecanum drive. There are teams that will refuse to pick a robot with mecanum regardless of how their robot performs.
On this topic, when teams are looking for a third robot to be a good defender, they often want someone who isn’t going to get easily pushed laterally, and on average, mecanum drives have significantly less lateral traction than a comparable traction drivetrain.
This. Very much this.
The other big thing is having a consistently performing drive team.
For example, if your robot is underperforming or everything but drive is malfunctioning, but your driveteam is consistenly playing and adapting well the the conditions (and not getting penalties), you’d get bumped up if we are looking for a defensive team.
On top of all this, remember to be great to work with. Collaborate tightly, play smart, drive well. Especially in Districts, this gets remembered. It’s much easier to pick someone based on 12 solid matches plus a history of performance under pressure and great collaboration than it is on just the former. There’s a pretty incredible competitive advantage that comes from coaches being able to read each other’s minds.
If it helps, 1640 was in a similar position as this for years when we started. It can end. The best advice I can give is to be the #2 Pick every #1 Captain wants: try to demonstrably and consistently play, think, repair, and perform like their #1 Pick but happen to have the strategic capabilities they want in their #2 Pick. (I don’t claim perfection at it, but it seems to have worked out!)
Those specific #2 capabilities change between and during seasons as well as across events, but a good datum is 100% climbing, no break downs, effective no-foul defense, a center autonomous gear, and no drops if you do ~2 teleop gears. It’s also very difficult to choose a #2 Pick with mecanum, especially in years where having a defender pushed into a protected zone is a tech foul (as most alliances will want the flexibility to put you on defense). Not that those picks shouldn’t or don’t occur, but it’s a barrier. For now, though, drive-practice the wheels off that baby! (and then, you know, replace them and test everything)
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No penalties
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Consistent driving
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Human Players who know what they are doing
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Single drive team who can grow and gain experience, and knows the rules. (Can’t tell you how frustrating it is when you work out a strategy with a drive team then get to the field and different people show up to drive…)
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Get a simple auto to at least get the mobility points. If you don’t have, ask other teams for help.
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Practice Defense. If you can show in quals that you can play defense (again no penalties) that will help during team’s pick-list meetings. Instead of guessing who can/can’t play D, they already know that you can effectively.
I mentioned this in another thread.
During qualifications you want to show off your abilities to other teams.
In order of importance, strive to meet the following bullet points:
- Climb in 100% of your matches.
- Deliver at least 3 teleop gears per match. (omits pre-loaded gear.)
- Gear Auto 100% of your matches.
If you meet all those points you are either picking or will be a first pick. The closer you get to those points the high your chance of being picked will be.
From what we have seen week one, climbing is necessary for an alliance to be competitive. Robots will* be picked in order of climb consistency.
I mentioned delivering 3 teleop gears next as I personally find it more important. Other teams may however be looking at your auto gear consistency as being more important to them. Depends on the alliance composition really.
*“Should”. I don’t actually know how other teams think, but from my analysis it is the the most important statistic that will separate bots.
I appreciate these kinds of posts. There are many teams that feel this way and it takes guts to make a post like this, expressing honesty and being positive about the situation.
If your robot consistently places gears and can climb, this is the year that such a team should be able to make eliminations.
Back in our early years when we wanted other teams to take notice of ours, we created a 1 page flyer that stated what our robot could do and asked teams to scout us during matches. I can recall in certain competitions where alliance captains picked us because of our flyer, albeit a second pick.
Good luck in your future events!
OK. A couple of questions that should help you answer your own question:
1> You said you climb … did you climb every match? how fast did you climb? how long did it take for you to grab the rope?
2> You said you ran gears … How many gears per match did you place? did you drop gears? drop them in bad places (like the loading station or at pegs)? how far on the peg did you place gears?
3> You say you were in 31st place … why? were you a help or hindrance to your alliance? Did you work with your alliance or just ‘do what you do’? Did you cause penalties?
4> Did you talk to all the other teams? especially your alliance partners in line? Did you talk to the top teams and demonstrate your robots/drivers capabilities? Did you stand out from the crowd (of robots)?
I’m not trying to be mean here. This is self scouting. If you cannot state that you are the BEST at something, then It’ll be difficult to get picked out (selected for elimination matches) from the herd.
I want to reinforce what several people have already said that it would be beneficial to build relationships with the stronger teams at your event. In addition to promoting your team, you can ask them what they are looking for and how your team can help them build a winning alliance. Their suggestions may help your team improve this year and possibly in future years. Some of them may take your team under their wing and give you access to their experience to help you improve for your next event (official or off-season). It also shows that your team is willing to work with them, something that is sometimes hard to find.
It may be difficult at this time for your team to be “the best” at any particular part of the game since that is likely to require a huge leap in capabilities that is just not achievable in a short time i.e. shoot faster and more accurately than 1986. If you were already the best, you might be doing the picking 
Your team should get to know what the level of play is and know what your team is good at and what it is not good at. This then allows you to improve some aspect of your performance so that your team becomes the “best available”. Over time, your team can transition from being “the best second pick” to “the best first pick”.
Like others have mentioned, just name recognition can help. Sometimes things as simple as getting a photo linked with your TBA page can be the difference between someone remembering the robot, and coupling it with you number, or not.
We were actually at GSD as well. If you would find it helpful I can share our scouting info with you. Our scouts watch every team and record lots of quantitative information, as well as notes about general build quality, performance, bad luck situations, and more. They then go through and rank the teams in many different categories (Gear Ability, Shoot Ability, Climb Ability, Defense Ability, and more).
Using this we could likely boil it down to where you ended up in those lists, and why the teams just above or below, ended up just above or just below you. Perhaps this indicates where to focus out of bag time?
I’m not sure if seeing some of that and the notes along with it would help in finding a way to boost above teams with similar skill-sets.
We will also be at SNHU, and have noticed that a significant portion of the team list is similar to GSD, so you know what you are up against in many ways.
Shoot me a PM if you would like to go over some of our scouting info. We would be happy to share it with you if you think it would be helpful to look at.
As waialua359 said, this is an awesome thread. Rather than bashing the system, or other teams, you are looking for advice to improve. That is absolutely awesome.
~Zac
Sometimes, especially at week 1 events, you end up in a clown fiesta draft. Where people are picking teams to entertain clowns rather than to win the event. There are teams who don’t know what they are doing and don’t really have great data. There’s just a chance that everyone at the event missed you or the fact that you guys weren’t as consistent as you thought.
Regardless climbers SHOULD be picked in elims. Climber is the single most important quality in robots for the past week and this week. The importance of getting a couple of extra gears is almost negligible compared to the 50 extra points each climbs provide. So either the teams made a huge mistake or you guys did something during the matches that would get you blacklisted from a lot of the teams picklists (mecanum drive train, 20,000 tech fouls, etc).
Before I say anything, please note that what Glenn and Zac said about this being a great thread is correct. I used to be in NH FRC, so I can provide some extra insights. I think something your team could definitely improve away from the robot is just getting your name out there. I remember your team being very small and usually building specialty robots (which is exactly what you should be doing), but other than that I can’t remember much about your team when I see the number. Definitely go out of your way to get to know the teams around you and make good impressions when you play with them. Don’t be afraid to talk to teams and ask what you can do to help your chances of getting picked by them. And try to find a way to stand out from the pack. Just about everyone at GSD had a gear mechanism and most had a climber, so what makes you better than the other teams in the group? Sometimes the little things like being easy to work with, having a memorable match with a team, or just having a good relationship can help you get picked when it’s between you and a similar robot.
Edit: also if you aren’t already, feel free to join the FRC NH Alliance Facebook page, it’s a great resource to ask questions to teams in the area and help start those relationships.
How charismatic is your drive team / scouting team, and how comfortable are they with going forth with a list of the top 20 teams near the end of quals on Saturday, and track down the strategists/ captain/ whoever you think is putting the most thought into picking their elim alliance of those top 20 teams. This will improve your chances of being picked drastically. It gives them a mental note of your team, gets them thinking about your team and your robots abilities.