How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?

FIRST General Forum
#21

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
In 2007, even when you didn’t have to worry about the other teams taking your tubes, an alliance of three robots struggled to score more then 8 tubes. I don’t think you will see much different this year. 8 Tubes, one logo, 2 Uber tubes, factor in minibots, Week 1, 45 Wins you a match, 80+ at Champs.

- How effective will defense be?
Very. One robot, designed to play Defense can shut down an entire alliance. If you see a robot with fold down wings at your regional, watch them closely.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
If a team can’t score on the top, i’m telling them to be a feeder. Don’t score tubes on the low peg when I can put it up top and triple it’s value. Drop it next to me and go get another one. Three top scorers will basically be every team for itself. Anytime that condition doesn’t exist, you better hope it turns into a team game.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
Throw out.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
Elevators and roller claws.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
In Quals, Yes. Elims, No.

- Will the mini-bots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
Yes, yes, yes. If your minibot wasn’t your top priority I hope you found a way to score 2 tubes at once.

- How will mini-bots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
Similar. Very, very, similar. Minibots are way too easy to copy.

- How would you like to see the game played?
I love strategy. I would like each match to be played like a high speed chess match. If that means a shutdown defense, or a high octane offense, 2 opposing strategies duking it out is exciting. Nothing is more frustrating to me then when your watching a match and it’s painfully obvious the three teams did not talk any sort of strategy at all. Then they walk off the field and wonder why they got smoked.

#22

  • How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
    Double week one qual average to get championships qual average

  • How effective will defense be?
    Not very.

  • Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
    “If a team can’t score on the top, i’m telling them to be a feeder. Don’t score tubes on the low peg when I can put it up top and triple it’s value.”
    Totally agree with this!

  • Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
    BOTH!

  • What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
    Elevators and roller claws.

  • Will floor loading be as important as many think?
    YES, it always is!

  • Will the mini-bots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as
    Week one yes. BUT there influence will definitely drop off. At some point it becomes about consistency over speed.

  • How will mini-bots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
    Minibots are easy to copy which is one more reason why it is the consistency that will win out. YOU can have a 1/2 second mini bot but if it only works 1/2 of the time how useful is it?

  • How would you like to see the game played?
    winning alliances will have at least 2 robots that score autonomously. 1 fast minibot and 1 consistent minibot. As well as a team with a well trained drive team.

WHY IS AUTONOMOUS NOT DISCUSSED HERE!!!
Did I miss an update where they decided to not include it? lol, just kiding.
But seriously I think it is a highly underrated part of this years game.

#23

How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?

I would say that Most Matches in week one will end with scores lower than 40. By the end of the season, I’d imagine these will increase to around 60, so 33% or so.

  • How effective will defense be?

Defense will define regionals. Week Zero Scrimmages showed us that to defend a robot you have to do nothing more than block the gap between the two towers. Good Offensive machines will need to be prepared to get their hands dirty and escort teams if they want to score.

  • Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?

Depends on the match, and the quality of teams. If one robot is CLEARLY better at hanging tubes than the rest, I think the rest will be feeders. The issue is that many teams will look at this as a pride issue and not want to feed another robot.

  • Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?

Good tube throws will win matches, and regionals. Every second you can save in pickup is valuable.

  • **What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators? **

It doesn’t matter. If it works well, it will do well.

  • **Will floor loading be as important as many think? **

Floor loading gives a team the capability to shorten the distance they HAVE to travel to get a tube, so yes, it will matter.

  • **Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working? **

In early regionals, having a minibot that works will be enough to do well. Most match scores will be low enough that winning the race will be enough points to win the match.

  • How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?

Yes. Once the word gets out, minibots will become more uniform, making their speed up the pole less important than deployment time.

  • How would you like to see the game played?

In a way that we win, of course. :wink:

#24

As team captain of 3329 and as a part of the drive team, I think that defense wil be extremely important as the season contiinues. This will be a shining attribute for teams without extremely strong manipulators. I know that because of my teams specially engineered chassis, we plan to make full use of it’s special qualities and high maneuverability to run tubes and play some hard defense. :smiley:
As for minibots, important early on, less effective on score later, especially in the elim rounds. it will probably come down to a battle of deployment rather than who has the best bot.

But who really knows…

#25

For the teams touting the advantages of defense, where are you going to play it?

Consider a simplified two runners, one scorer strategy. Scorer stays in or near the protected zone. Runners get tubes. Do you defend the runners? Which one? Both?

You can’t stop the scoring - the scorer is protected.
You can’t stop the running - it’s a 2 on 1.

What do you do?

This isn’t defense’s greatest game.

#26

I was thinking the same thing. If the runners coordinate their actions, each can pass out of their general scoring area on the edges of the tower bottleneck. Because robots cannot work together to inhibit the flow of the game, a single robot cannot block both runners.

If you block one, then who do you block on the return trip, the one with the tube or the one going to get the tube?

Defense will slow scoring down to some degree, but I don’t think it will be quite as disastrous as people are saying. (I also have this vision in my head of robots passing tubes over dragonflies…)

#27

A feeder seems a huge waste of a bot that could play defense. Defense is easy and effective if run like a gate going back and forth just outside the protected zone. When they come out for a tube you hit the tube. If they come out past you, you block them on the way back in. This is where the floor loading becomes a vulnerability, as a risk to the manipulator and a time waster under defense. The defensive bot can clear out thrown tubes, block loading, block entry and block an end run to the poles. The defender is huge. A fast defender and 2 scorers (like 2007) will be the optimum I think. 3 scorers is a crowd on 2 racks.

#28

I agree - and the scorer can venture out to pick up a thrown tube, etc., if their supply runs low making it a 3 on 1 battle. Not to mention the fact that the defender hasn’t scored a single tube or fed one to his scorer the whole time.

If there is a defender present, I think an elevator based lift has an advantage over a pivoting arm, since they have an easier time maneuvering and scoring entirely within the protected zone.

#29

I just saw this comment, and thought of something.

Since most Week 1 Average Scoring Estimates are around 50 points or below, I wonder if we’ll see two Powerhouse teams chose to not score any tubes and just deploy two Sub-Two Second Mini-bots? Now that I think about it, if both teams were to score an Ubertube on the top row and then come in first and second in the mini-bot race, they would win 90% of week one Qualification - if not elimination - matches.

#30

Hmmm. So seed 1 (with the fastest minibot at the regional) picks the second fastest minibot and both with consistent ubertube auto scorers. Then 2 play defense the whole match, with 1 scoring, shutting down the other team. Then deploy and win the 30 and 20 point bonuses getting 62 + the tube scores… I like it…

#31

Why even bother with the defense in that scenario? there’s no way they’ll make up a 62 point deficit faster than the best two teams at the regional.

#32

because the only way they can beat you is with more tube scores, so you slow that down as best you can. plus you jam up there end of the field with 4-5 bots. also at the end game your right next to your post.

#33

**How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?**In early weeks (1-3) you will see some teams not scoring over 12 and others putting up 40+ on their own. As it gets to Championship most scores will average out around 60 to 30.

**- How effective will defense be?**during the first 1:30 of the match the best they can do is hope to knock a thrown tube down but they will just end up keeping their own alliance’s score down. In the final 30 seconds they can possibly keep teams with weak drivetrains from even getting to the pole to deploy. (any wonder why you are seeing teams that have had dominant swerve drive using 6 or 8 wheel drive with 2 speeds. They are getting to the pole, good luck stopping them.)

**- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?**A good alliance will coordinate efforts. Help push thrown tubes to scorers. If it is every team for itself it had better be an amazing bot.

**- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?**Why drive 50 feet when you can have the weakest scorer on the alliance push thrown tube a couple of feet?

**- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?**Fast pickup & delivery to the peg. I don’t discriminate on type.

**- Will floor loading be as important as many think?**If you want to score quickly.

**- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?**In the first 2 to 3 weeks minibot will make or break the game. If you have 2 good minibots on a qualification alliance there is no point in even playing with the tubes. There will be matches in the early weeks where NO minibot scores. 1 working minibot will make or break. You will also see teams with weak drive systems needing to leave the tubes with a minute left to make sure they can get to the pole.

**- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?**By Championship most useful minibots will be under 3 seconds. No team with a greater than 3.5 second minibot will make eliminations at Championship. Many teams will not stop working on the minibots others will not make any improvements. Improve or perish.

**- How would you like to see the game played?**I agree that the rules need to stay the same. I hope defense is limited to keeping teams from minibot deployment. Dexterity and speed with the tubes will make the game fun to watch. The minibot will make the end game exciting. I just hope penalties don’t become the deciding factor in this game.

#34

This is actually a pretty good idea.

My hypothetical situation was based on a Qualification match, so I just assumed that the two powerhouses were playing against an alliance of two “normal” teams.

But, in your elimination strategy, defense actually makes sense. You can play defense right around the gap in the towers, and at no time are you ever really that far from the towers. At 20 seconds or so, you get into position for the end game and then once the towers go live you deploy and win.

Shoot, you still have your 3rd robot too, they could put up tubes the whole time or something.

#35

Update #13
<G48-C> ALLIANCE ROBOTS may not work together to blockade the FIELD in an attempt to stop the flow of the MATCH. This rule has no effect on individual ROBOT-to-ROBOT defense.

Violation: PENALTY plus RED CARD

#36

This is from an elim’s perspective; quals are up in the air.

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
50%, From Week 1’s top score to Einstein’s top score. Not sure about averages.

- How effective will defense be?
Effective against the top bot; however this year there are more pictures and videos of good-working bots than ever; either we’re getting good with video or more bots really do work prior to ship. Given penalties and such, it will be effective in assisting to close the scoring gap, but I do not believe it will shut down an entire alliance.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
Thrown. It’s too crowded in the lane.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
It didn’t matter so much in 2007 (lift vs arm) or 2008 (lift/arm vs launch). So long as the tube gets to the high pegs, it doesn’t matter tbh. Well-built roller claws have the advantage, but tenacity and driver practice will close the gap for quick grippers. Quick grippers are typically simpler to maintain as well.
**

  • Will floor loading be as important as many think?**
    Heh. If the “many” were to answer this question then the obvious answer is ‘yes’. I’m in that group of “many”.

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
A bonus is a bonus, during a different part of the game. I think that minibot influence will remain the from the perspective of those who do not have two: they will remain at a disadvantage throughout the season. Those alliances that do have two minbots to go up will always have the advantage. 0.5 seconds will matter in a match or two. Minibots will only define winners (per se) in matches where 3-4 of the 6 are defenders (typical of elims with the 7th/8th seed).
**

  • How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?**
    I’m sure they will be, just like we’ll see teams scrap their skinny roller claws for wider roller claws. It’s iterative and open. That’s the fun about this competition – it’s so frustrating to design your own bot only to have it trumped by bots with many more resources/ingenuity – yet it’s just as inspirational to compete against those robots, learn, and come back for more later. Plus, those bots typically have more than just 1 great design on their overall bot – so copycatting really isn’t as huge an advantage as we’d think (imo).

- How would you like to see the game played?
4 minibots every match; “Epsilon” formations; “wingmen”, etc. It would be interesting to watch organized strategy, not organized chaos.

#37

I’m thinking the latter part of that rule where it’s essentially 2 on 2 (or man on man coverage) and not an organized blockade. My primary defense method would be to hit the tube that they want to pick up. But I guess it’s debatable as to what your trying to do when things get congested. Maybe we need clarification on the logistics of that rule. Interesting…

#38

Update #13
<G48-C> ALLIANCE ROBOTS may not work together to blockade the FIELD in an attempt to stop the flow of the MATCH. This rule has no effect on individual ROBOT-to-ROBOT defense.

Violation: PENALTY plus RED CARD

Is putting 2 robots in between your two towers preventing robots from getting to or from the scoring grid considered a blockade? Because the robots can still travel around the towers through the lane.

does this rule pretty much mean that you cant have 2 or 3 robots from your alliance near each other on defense?

#39

Go around through the lane??? You mean go into the lane that costs them a red card??? How is that not a blockade? :confused:

#40

Hmmm,

Lemme see here, my little defensive bot against the entire other alliance? With 30 second cycle times, I’d pin 1 runner. The Scorer is staying in the ‘safe zone’ to stay away from me. So that means the other runner can get a total of 2 tubes gets delivered to the ‘scorer’ (and scored) while my offensive partners are free to score at will.

I can even go after and pin their best minibot deployer at the 20 second mark (keeping them far away from their towers) to try and allow my partners to win the minibot race.

I’ll take that strategy for the win.