How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?

FIRST General Forum
#41

I’m on the opposing side. I think that this year may be one of the most boring yet. It is essentially a copy of Rack ‘N’ Roll for the most part, which means that we will mainly see teams either repeating what they did for Rack ‘N’ Roll, or doing whatever a winning team did.

Defense, one of my favorite things to build a robot for, will be either too weak, or impossible to get around. Early on, teams will focus on scoring ONLY, and when teams try to defend, it will be too easy! There are many places where it will be hard for a robot to maneuver, and blocking those places will be a small challenge for the other teams. For the most part, robots this year are going to have a lot of telescoping arms, or elevator-like mechanisms, that cannot go out far, just up. It will be easy to block an incoming robot from scoring if they cannot move their hanging mechanism near the pegs. I’ve also seen many designs built for defense that cannot score, but completely block off an opponent when they try to come back after receiving a tube, or when they try to get near the feeding station. The competition will be fun, since all FIRST competitions are, but the creativity level and exciting new robots will be at an all time low.

Of course, this is just my opinion, but it does make sense.

#42

How does it take 30 seconds for a kitbot to run across the field twice? You can run a tube in 15 seconds, easily.

This is assuming that one of the runners is completely unable to do anything the second you decide to play defense on them (not true), and it also assumes that the scorer never has an opportunity to take a tube.

You can’t take a robot out of a match that easily, between the pinning rule and protected zones.

#43

  • How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
    Depends. If you have scoring machines coupled with an amazing defense, and good throwers, then it’s going to be high to low. Otherwise, it’ll depend on the robots.

  • How effective will defense be?
    Personally, not very much. I say it depends on the robots you go against. Elevators will be easy to block, while arms may be harder.

  • Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
    It all depends on the strategy of the alliances. Whatever works, but in order to have feederbots, you’ll need good throwers that can get the tubes half way across the field, and feederbots that can get the tubes off the ground quickly.

  • Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
    If teams have good throwers, who can accurately throw the tubes across the field, then throwing is what they want. Feeding is only viable if you have a robot that can easily get fed from the feeder and get out of the feeding area, and across the field safely.

  • What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
    All will be good. Elevators are easy to get up to the maximum height, but can be inaccurate and must be next to the pegs to score. Rotating arms (like the one we use), can score on the pegs from OUTSIDE the scoring zone, which is useful if being blocked, and can throw tubes far ahead of them if they are blocked, so that a teammate can get it. Arms would have to be accurate, and fast to move, though. (Which ours is)

  • Will floor loading be as important as many think?
    Like I said before, if an alliance has good throwers, then robots need to be ready to get tubes anywhere, from ANY position. This includes leaning up against a wall.

  • Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
    Early on when the minibots are still in development, they could make or break a match. Later on when all teams have seen the other minibots, they will be just a scoring factor, that everyone has.

  • How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
    I think that by the championships, everybody will have a similar method of traveling up the pole. I’ve already seen 4 teams use our method, but they probably didn’t steal it.

  • How would you like to see the game played?
    I would like to see the matches played with different strategies in the beginning, but having teams mix their strategies together in the elimination rounds.

#44

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
Qualifying- average 20-40 (over half points will be minibot points)
Elimination Winners: 70-90
(45 or 50 points of the Winners’ total will be minibots giving a 25 or 15 point advantage over the losers)
(scoring on the lower two rows will be relatively meaningless in the eliminations- completing two logos on the top row will be critical)

- How effective will defense be?
One good defensive bot can reduce logo scoring by 30-40% just by getting in the way and not trying to pin.
In other words, very effective if they pay attention to the rules.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
2 offense: 1 defense will become the norm as the game develops.
Feeders will have a hard time handing off to scorers if there is a good defending bot. At the other end, two run/scorers will be free of hassle if an opposing alliance chooses to use a feeder instead of a defender. Also, a feeder bot means your opposing alliance can throw logo pieces without risk.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
If no defender, throwing is viable if HP can get it 3/4 down field.

**- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators? **
minibots :wink:

**- Will floor loading be as important as many think? **
Floor loading will work against alliances that don’t strategize about defense.

**- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working? **
Minbots will define 15-25 point advantage over lesser teams. If minibots equalize- it becomes completely a game of chance - the difference in logo scoring will almost never define the winner at the regional nor the championship.

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
ALL 4 minibots in the championship will hit the top of the towers before the clock hits 8 seconds left.
The referees will have no realistic way to know if a minibot jumped the gun by 20-70 ms. (high speed instant replay will show the referees getting it wrong).

- How would you like to see the game played?

Bobby Locke:
“You drive for show but putt for dough.”

Putting large bright logo pieces high in the air will provide the arena with SHOW.

Most people in the arena won’t even see the minibots scamper up the poles so fast- they will just look at lights and the scoreboard- they will define the winner of LOGOmotion.

The minibots are the PUTT of LOGOmotion.

Maybe the game should be renamed MINIBOTmotion :smiley:

#45

one thing that may factor into that is an all time high in mechanum drives. personally i think that a good tank drive will be able to push all of the mechanums around without difficulty. thus i conclude that in in elims, where the primary feeders and things to play defense on will be kit-bots (super fast, no pushing power, cant turn well) and mechanums (not as maneuverable on the open feild as a good tank, and not as powerfull either.) thus i think that the stated strategy is only good if you have a custom setup tank, and it is early in the day Friday.

#46

I think the smart teams won’t be picking mecanum drives to be running as feeders.

#47

Not only do feeders need to be fast, they need to be able to push through defenders. A mecanum is good in the fact that they can strafe to score, if they miss their first pass.

I feel that minibots will have a scoring adjustment (with great controversy on CD) at the end of Week one.

I also predict that throwing tubes past the center line will be banned.

Note that these are completely unbased predictions, but we shall see how it plays out!

#48

  • How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
    By 5-6 points each week, leveling off at one point and staying at a general rate.

  • How effective will defense be?
    A successful defensive strategy will win out 2/3rds of the time.

  • Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
    An with weak human players will need feeder bots. I see Feeder Bots to have a good time in this competition, but only at select regionals where competition is less defensive. You will most likely not see a feeder bot on Einstein Field.

  • Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
    Thrown, thrown and more throwing.

  • What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
    Roller Claws, and Elevators.

  • Will floor loading be as important as many think?
    Yes.

  • Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
    It will define which teams will take home 1st place trophies.

  • How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
    Some teams may revamp the minibots, and I expect to see minibots evolve as designs are unveiled.

  • How would you like to see the game played?
    Each alliance takes advantage of Auto-mode and goes for as many tubes as possible. The minibots should be played like any end game - don’t play to win the minibot race. Play to win the entire match time.

#49

How can you have an arm that scores the top rung from OUTSIDE the scoring zone without being over 84" long? I don’t see this… if you are being blocked… the blocker will be between you and the scoring grid…which means your robot will be out at the yellow line or beyond… If you have an arm on your robot that long you would be beyond 84"…

Remember its not as simple as just going over an opponent that is right under the goals…they have to be 6 feet away from the goals…

I just can’t see this… can you explain?

#50

I disagree: Scoring outside the Zone is a disadvantage to you, since a defender can easilly knock you around.

#51

Actually you are both right. Rankings are first generated on the W-L-T system, like years previous to 2010. This is your qualification score.

In order to break ties on this system, you then get a Ranking score on top of your qualifcation score. If you win you get your oppones unpenalised score and If you loose or tie your get your penalised score.

This system gives you WLT, but at the same time looks at how easy or hard your win was, and rewards teams who won by a close call compared to those who just completely dominated in each match.

#52

how often does everyone REALLY think that runner bots will be chosen for alliances in the elim rounds? and what do you think that the average attributes will be common amongst them? would two teams with 1 scorer and 2 runners get in each others ways?

how often does everyone REALLY think that runner bots will be chosen for alliances in the elim rounds?
They will probably be pretty common in the later rounds but not so much in the quals. as far as choosing for alliances, every alliance will probably have at LEAST one runner.

and what do you think that the average attributes will be common amongst them?
They will all have to be fast, with one faster and another that is quick albiet less with more pushing power to overcome any mid-field jamming that may occur.

**would two teams with 1 scorer and 2 runners get in each others ways? **hard to say. if they were smart, no, they would avoid each other like crazy to score as fast as possible. however, the nearer the endgame, the more interference we may see due to deployment and defense of such.

just my spin on the issue.

#53

Teams tend to drastically overestimate how many other teams will be good scorers at regionals. A lot of teams will have a lot of trouble scoring, especially at their first event, and will be looking for things to do other than pure scoring. Tube passing is one. Defense is another, but this game doesn’t call for as much defense as it seems in my personal opinion.

and what do you think that the average attributes will be common amongst them? would two teams with 1 scorer and 2 runners get in each others ways?

Not any more than 3 scorers versus 3 scorers would. 2 runners for 2 slots is a pretty good balance, with some “spot” defense here and there to slow down critical tubes.

#54

how often does everyone REALLY think that runner bots will be chosen for alliances in the elim rounds?

If my alliance has two robots that can pick up from the ground. Why waste a pick on a robot that will bring me tubes when I’ve got human players for this?

If it came down a picking a robot, I’d much rather pick a defensive bot than a runner bot.

and what do you think that the average attributes will be common amongst them?

Runner should be what they say they are. Runners. If they aren’t fast and then they aren’t running.

**would two teams with 1 scorer and 2 runners get in each others ways? **

Nope. If you a runner for each slot, then it’s fine because both runners can stay on opposite halves of the field. But, I think you’ll find some congestion between the runners and the opposing alliance. It’s a tight squeeze when 5 bots are in one half of the field.

  • Sunny
#55

Thats a good point cris. by critical tubes do you mean like the last one for a logo? I only think that along with the tubes, which may or may not happen (it will probably depend on the match and who is playing whom), but defense will be critical in the end game because of the large influence of the minibots.

#56

My point is our robot can get tubes INTO the scoring area if blocked by fully extending the arm. We have a really good arm. We can even sometimes score on the middle peg depending on where we are blocked.

#57

We have sturdy robot a drive train, so it’ll be hard to push us around. Our arm can go high, and long, so we should be able to get the tube over the opposing robot. Our engineering team knows more about how that works. I’m just a programmer. We can even spit tubes out, about a foot to 2 feet, so we can easily get OVER an opposing robot.

#58

are those of you promoting the power of defense in this years game considering the heavy weight that a 30 point penalty carries and how easy it is to incur such a penalty…

#59

That’s why you choose a team for your alliance that can play defense without getting any penalties.

#60

Then you defend without pinning.