How would you feel about a robot lifting you, but not themselves?

A follow up to my other post, interested to see the trust differences between the two scenarios.

How would you feel about a robot lifting you, but not themselves, with a elevator or forklift type system?

Edit: the scenario is in a quals match

Any trust I have in any other mechanism is highly dependent on what that mechanism is. If someone has a janky scissor lift made out of 1/2 inch plywood, I’m not going to be very trusting. If someone has a milled aluminum plate based one, that’s going to go much further. Quality matters. All in all, for climbing, a foot drop can’t really do a lot of harm all in all, but it’s still on a case by case basis for which one I trust.

Week 1 Quals match 1, I’m willing to give a team the benefit of the doubt if they have a video, I know our bot fits on their ramp with plenty of margin for error, and we have at least a 4 match turnaround to fix things.

In the later matches & weeks I’m sure we’ll have some actual reliability data.

Here are some of the questions I’m asking myself:
Is it more likely a district event winning alliance will have a ramp bot or a lifter bot?
Is it more likely the District Championship winning alliance will have a ramp bot or a lifter bot?
Is it more likely the Einstein winning alliance have a ramp bot or a lifter bot?
If we were an alliance captain, would we choose a ramp bot or a lifter bot as our 1st pick?
Would I be more nervous on the finals of any of the above if we were on an alliance with a ramp bot or a lifter bot?
At a district competition, would I rather get our climb by driving onto a ramp bot, or by having another bot lift us into the air? (who do I trust more not to drop us?)
Do I want us to try to design a robot which can reliably deploy two ramps, or can reliably lift twice our own weight?

Asking myself the same questions! The goal of this was to gain insight on how other teams were thinking

What about an in-pit demo of it holding up 2 mentors?

I would be more comfortable with this option than a ramp bot that takes itself up as well, simply because there is less force being exerted. That being said, I’d need to see it work first.


My minds eye robot must become a quality reality now! That is a boatload of trust if a repeatable quality and reliabilty demonstration is present. I’d suggest all those taller scaler robots figure out how to get shorter and more compact and balanced specifically for the endgame. “Lean on me” would become our theme song.

Same robot would be responsible for getting the required 3 to 9 cubes (and steal more), through that wall to secure his (my), own levitation, and be a master switch owner, and cube redelivery bot for a high scaler.

That bot would probably never scale place a block, and still be in demand. But, it would be able to dead lift 400lbs up 12". Practical issue, only 2 live bots at the end of the match…opps, I hope you can climb, because I need to hitch and go for a ride, or use levitate myself. Lifting 2 is balanced, lifting just one not as easy unless I use a moving ballast mechanism inside. (1 Ramp steel, 1 milled alum. with adj. internal ballast?)

BTW, those outside edge feet that cannot be touching the platform after Team Update 1, they would still be present for safety sake, but they would be 1-2" above the platform now. Dropping you 2" is bad enough under any circumstance…dropping you 12" is absolutely unacceptable. Once on the platforms I will need to attach somewhere higher to each bot, but we can work that out pre-match in the pits as well as where that balast needs to be prematch for everything to balance, as my witholding allowance would be dedicated to said attachment toolkit. Lean on me!

Just how many reinspection stickers do I have room for? Will they dedicate an inspector? How many reinspections before they start to get perturbed? They didn’t when harpoon bot was being built in St. Louis a few years back during Recycle Rush, but that was Champs.

We may just leave an impression in the platform(s) or 6. (BUT, 81% plus trust, even from a limited polling sample is too much to pass up in my opinion). It is only 12" and for a small amount of time.

How much trust do you all have to have in a 150 lb high scaling climber hanging from the bar, on a 2 or 3 robots chained together. (Another 300lbs possibly attached) AND robot retrieval, many in 1 spot, many heads down, during the untangle and release(s)?

FIRST is trusting a lot in our safe handling of the scale scalers after endgame completion from a safety aspect…did you notice no safety (belay) system (yet), like the pyramid had? Last year we had many release issues, but we were 3 or 4 persons per robot incl. the field reset and repair crew, were spaced far apart, around 2 airships. The year before, each had thier own bar to hang from.

This year 6 robots on 2 colums, but they allowed the platform as a part of the scale, I think, hoping they would be used a lot. 3rd bot levitation Power Up shows that.

2 yrs ago many robots fell from a lot higher than 12", both successful and unsuccessful climbers. Same thing with last year. Every single one that I saw fall during competition made it back to the field. (Usually broken straps due to overdriving because the touchpad needed to be held up so long, leading to over stretching of the strap materials). Not saying a drop cannot damage, but Id rather you drop mine low, than I drop mine high. Or, I’d much rather drop you low, than have a high scaler/ climber drop all 3 of us during or after the engame. Retrieval is quicker and safer.

Last but not least…Is it ok if we look like a scale on a scale…or a switch on a scale at the end?:smiley:

Another thing to consider is not only the design of the robot that does the lifting but also the design of the robot that is being lifted. If you are lifting an extremely heavy bot then that would likely be an issue but if you are lifting a light robot then their probably is no issue. Another is if the robot being lifted is top heavy or not, even if it is light all in all, the weight on the top could make it tip over.

My group was looking at creating a ramp that we can lower for other teams to climb about 14 inches taller on us. Do you think this is a safe way to go about this?

Pneumatics can run at 60 psi. At 1.5 inch bore with a .5 inch rod, a pneumatic cylinder will generate ~94lbs on its return stroke.

You get two cylinders from Bimba.

To any rookie teams out there: If you make your bot maximum size with a ramp for another robot to drive onto you, and you can lift both of you, you will win your event. Period.

That seems hyperbolic to say the least. That’s only 60 points. If you can’t place on the scale your opponents can score 135+ with a single cube. Not to mention the vault, switches and power ups. If the double climb is the only thing your robot can do you’d struggle to even make semifinals at a decent regional. I’d say placing a cube on the switch in auto is a much better goal for rookie teams.

If your robot can move, you can do auto, 1/3 of a ranking point and 5 points. If your robot moves you can push 3 cubes through the slot, 30 point climb + 15 points for cubes. If your robot can move, you can play defense.

If you can lift yourself and another robot, you get another 60 points.

The maximum match score is 512.

Solo 110 will win you a district event. It will win you a regional. And it will win you Einstein.


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Than interesting extension to this discussion is, what are peoples opinions on climbing and pulling another robot up with them. This takes out the discussion of ramp vs lift, and presents an interesting strategy of using levitate to leave a robot scoring on the field for the whole match rather than on a ramp bot.

Ok, now we’re definitely breaching hyperbolic territory if we weren’t before.
That being said, many rookies might want to take some inspiration from 2007.

2017: 862 scores 4 gears and climbs: Finals 5 - FIRST Festival of Champions 2017 - The Blue Alliance

2016: 120 scores 4 goals and climbs: Finals 3 - Einstein Field 2016 - The Blue Alliance

2015: FIRST did not exist in 2015

2014: 2848 inbounds and plays defense: Finals 3 - Einstein Field 2014 - The Blue Alliance

2013: 1477 scores 8 shots and gets a 10 point hang: Finals 3 - Einstein Field 2013 - The Blue Alliance

Consistency, end game, and defense wins Einstein. Period.

I said rookies to be polite. If you are on CD and your team has never been on Top 25, you should build this robot.

This is a pretty terrible marker of what actually makes a team capable of building a specific robot or not.

Something like: Ability, Resources, Time, Skill fit the criteria to a higher degree than “was popular enough to get voted into a ranking system”

Tons of people said the same thing about the 30 point climb in 2013…

Dude! That year my team had NO wheels! Not worth it.

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