Hypothetical Situation

FIRST General Forum
#25

No, only in one situation would that be acceptable.

In Atlanta (Newton) we were moving up into the 20s after a rough start and our ally 585 from AZ this year had been in the top 8 the entire competition. Our last match was against them and if we won we would finish in the mid 20s and they would definitely be bumped out of the top 8. A few people suggested we could make an agreement with them but that idea was shot down almost immediately. We wanted to prove ourselves and play our best, and also we thought that throwing a match would be very underhanded. The only reason why the idea came up is because we were desperate to recover from out tie and loss in our first two rounds because our on-the-spot rebuilt arm didn’t quite reach the bar all the way. We didn’t like the idea one bit. We ended up finishing 23rd in Newton and 585 22nd. Personally, I like that we finished together. It’s too bad neither of us got to finals, but getting to Atlanta was plenty of fun in itself.

The only time I’d say you should throw a game is when you and your ally both have broken bots, are out of the competition, you both like the other two teams a lot, and want them to go to finals. Then you don’t shoot, let their shooters score a ball, and let their drivers practice some fancy moves for elims.

#26

If the teams were that close to eachother, then it would definately be a sticky situation. But, FIRST is the only sort of competition that I’ve seen where somebody can win and the opponents can be genuinely happy for them.

As strategist, I would plan to play the game and play it well. I’d tell my team to do their best. I’d play the strengths of my own robot and team to the weaknesses of the other. I’d hope for the best, but I don’t think I could be disappointed either way.

I wouldn’t be disappointed because, in the long run, it wouldn’t matter who wins. We would still care about eachother as teams, no matter what. The teams would always hope for the other to continue on in the finals. It would pride in the work of a friend.

Both situations, no matter which was chosen, would be best because the teams are able to share in the excitement of it all.

#27

Er… I am completely confused. I have no idea what this has to do with 60 & 254 working together…

In fact, this thread is not really about collaboration. It’s more of a collusion thread in disguise. Of course, not that that’s a bad thing. It’s perfectly acceptable to talk about.

And I still think I’d never go easy on them.

#28

i would go easy if i knew i would get picked. Getting to the next sstage is the most important thing. Sorry, everyone but i am feeling quite ambitious :eek: :eek: :eek:

#29

I would not go easy on them becuase if they were able to goet in &th place they must be preety good even though their alliance is not. For example, most of our matches were played with teams that were not very good and we still scored 100+ points. Every team should play to the best of their abilities.

#30

In going easy you are not being fair to your own team or the other team. I feel that if you give the match to them then your own team has let itself down and you have been unfair to the rest of the teams in the competition. I dont think you should harm their robot, but once you go on the field for competition you can’t let your alliance down. What if that match was the one that decided whether your alliance partner would have gotten picked for the finals matches? You never know what implications giving up will have on your alliance partner. I dont think that it looks good on your team or the team you are helping to win if you just give up. Thats just my opinion.
-Aaron

#31

I think there is a rather large distinction that is worth mentioning. The “collaboration” you speak of has the effect to spread the ideas of FIRST … it fosters the community and brings teams together, and all sorts of goodness, as FIRST has described already. However, letting another team win does none of this. Letting another team win is not collaboration. FIRST said that the collaboration you allude to was good, pointing out that the organization is not about the robots … but going easy on another team is about the robots, it is about winning a competition. And I hate to rehash it all again, but I’ll put my take into it too. Unless the spoils of victory are won honestly, unless they are hard fought for, they mean nothing. If FIRST hands you a championship trophey, will it mean anything to you? No, because a trophey by itself is nothing; the idea is what the trophey represents. Would you want it to represent a hard-fought-for victory, narrowly accomplished … or a handed-out knicknack? Remember, it is the journey that is important, not so much where you end up as how you got there.

#32

When our drive team goes out on the field we go out their to win…no matter who our alliance partner is and who is agianst us. Last year at Annapolis we went against(they were together) the two teams we won the regional with and beat them. In my mind picking a team that can beat you would be to your advantage…then you dont have to worry about them in the elims.:wink:

-Pat

#33

Fair game all the way. And if you lose, then you know that you tried.

#34

I am almost ashamed that this question was posted.

That goes against so many things that FIRST stands for.

For example, if this were ANY professional sport, “holding back” like that would be classified as one thing, and one thing only: POINT SHAVING, which just so happens to be illegal.

One of the reasons i like FIRST so much is because of the Gracious Professionalism. This would seem to go directly against that. How could that possibly be gracious to your alliance partners?

Also, FIRST is about showing what YOU can do, not about holding back.

So my answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT!

I also want to say that if anyone asked me to hold back so they could win, even if they would then pick me, I would be disappointed.

From the other side as well, I would also NEVER ask any team I am competing against to hold back in a match. And this just follows in my belief that to be the best, you have to beat the best.

#35

The old saying “cheaters never win” means that if you cheat you did not beat your opponent, so you did not actually win

if you throw a match for a sister team, then they have not ‘won’ the match, it was handed to them

and if they end up in 1st place, they did not earn that position, it was handed to them

and if they win the regional…

you would really have to hold a lot of contempt for your sister team to think they cannot win on their own, to win honestly

how would you feel, if your team won a regional, and later found out that other teams had rigged the event to put you on top?

If someone did that to my team I would be heartbroken. If you Win (capitol W) then that trophy means something. If someone cheats on your behalf then its nothing but 85 cents worth the plastic.

#36

Although you may be helping your sister team, you are most certainly not doing your alliance partners any justice. Sometimes not playing as hard as you can is a good thing, but in this case it most certainly is not.

#37

Going easy is not an option! In fact I think it would be an insult to you sister team to not try to win. Competition at a regional is exactly what it sounds like, competition. On the field everyon has the same goal, to win. Even if it seems hopeless, you should at least go down fighting!

#38

God this thread is old, but here goes.

<devil’s advocate>

Are you trying to win a single match, or win a tournament? Winning competitions is in large part about cultivating relations with teams, subtle inter-team politics, and though I’ve never seen it myself, I’d guess a fair amount of backstabbing. It’s part of the game as much as scoring tetras or poof balls is.

So yeah, I’d say always try your hardest to win. Win the compeition!

How is it at all un-GP to try to promote your allies by choosing which matches to do really well in? It is a nash equilibrium (well, it’s game theoretic anyway) Mr. Neun!

If you aren’t thinking like this, you aren’t trying as hard as you can. That’s rather un-GP if you ask me.

</devil’s advocate>

twirls mustache, cackles

#39

I think you should not go easy on them, you played strong ever other match and lost by a close match, so why not play hard again and give your sister team a run for their money? Seriously, speaking from experience you get more fun out of earning something than it being handed to you. =]

#40

Collusion! Nash Equilibrium! MAN, I’m glad I had micro-economics this semester!

Well I’m going to have to hope over with phrontist on this one for the simple chance of an intelligent argument (because its no fun when nobody’s arguing :smiley:

So the higher ranked sister team has been doing great all day, is 1st seed, and comes into one of the last matches of the day with you. Their alliance is them, and two robots that have had some “problems” :frowning: we all know how that goes) and your alliance consists of you and two other average to strong robots. They can almost, I mean ALMOST, beat all three of you by themselves, but it comes down to this:

dum dum … dum dum (does that sound like a heart beat to you :confused:

if you go up onto the ramp, your alliance wins, if you go play “defense” :wink: they win (and you know they are going to pick you as their first pick, and their is a very strong chance you will win your division at nationals and have the best shot to win nationals)

so what do you do? huh?

ps. sorry i had to make this so hypothetical and far-fetched, but this is the only way i could stretch this to make you, the average FIRSTer, even consider it :yikes: … let the intelligent punditry resume!

#41

Are you kidding?
there may be wthical values involved in this, but you just gotta win man. you have to.
you need to strive for perfection and wipe down the weak!
and at the same time, you have to help the weak while you are offstage.

#42

if your sister team is 8th and you are 50th, you let them win a match, ok

they goto #1 ranking and you fall to what? 65th?

if the #1 ranked team picks the #65th ranked team in their first draft pick, there is no way you are going home with the trophy, because the #2 team will pick the #3 or #4 team, and by the time your sister teams gets another pick, their choices (with the new rules this year) will be down to the #17th ranked team.

Poetic justice: if you are not playing to win and hand a match to your sister team

and they pick the #65th ranked team (you) then they are not playing to win either. In the end you both loose, and the judges will pick up on this and you can kiss goodby any other awards your two teams might have won.

It would be a looooooooooooooooooooong bus ride home!

#43

Winning or losing is a bug issue and people have different interpretations of winning. While moving on the finals of a regional by losing a match is still winning I’d rather take a loss in a match and keep my integrity.

Either way you lose but this is what I’d do.

#44

The issue of collusion was a much bigger deal in the past. Up until 2 years ago teams were ranked not by their wins but instead usually by some multiple of their opponents scores.(Think the current tie breaking system but for your overall rank) Thus it was often to both teams benefit if the other scored as high as possible. While this can only be taken so far in zero sum games like zone zeal in 2002, in 2003 with stack attack it was taken pretty far. Teams could start with stacks of boxes already set up. Opponents would often agree to each leave their opponent’s stack untouched in order to improve their rankings. It was frowned upon to a certain extent but not as much as the collusion presented in this thread has people riled up and angry.

As for this situation, depending on the other teams in involved I would consider throwing the match. It would however have to be a very select group of teams. The other robots in my alliance would have to be poorly functioning or not at all for me to consider it as an option. Also as an aside, you don’t get to compete that often, only 8 rounds if you only go to one regional and don’t get into the finals. If you’re driving you want to go out there and show off no matter the situation.