I can't deal with this anymore

Competition Team Organization
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While I joined because I love STEM, being on a FRC team has been one of the most stressful things I have ever dealt with in my life. While on the team, myself and many others have had to put up with:

  • General lack of respect for team members, especially rookies, from student and adult leadership.
  • Concentration of work into few people, leading to inflated egos and high amounts of stress and work. This leads to people staying late, avoiding eating to work on the robot, and having anxiety attacks and breakdowns from the amount of stress they are under
  • The fact that leads don’t trust anyone and do everything by themselves leads to a poor team reputation both with our members and outside our team, driving low levels of recruitment and many people quitting
  • The work that people do end up doing is not valued and some students are made fun of for poor performance
  • Constant arguments, clique-forming, and negative social dynamics being formed between members and mentors. Kids are singled out and excluded, along with bad rumors being told behind their backs.
  • Bad leadership, especially from adult figures on the team. Coaches are incapable of dealing with team drama (and are occasionally involved), unable to manage important tasks such as keeping track of finances, and generally either don’t see problems or don’t see it as their job to fix them.
  • Drive team culture is terrible. Drivers are put on a pedestal and often have anger outbursts. They feel like they are above everyone and don’t need to work.

It has gotten to the point that I and multiple other members have considered quitting, but we know we can’t because the team places a lot of work on us and would not be able to compete. I would like to join another team, but there aren’t any other teams in my area.

With all of this, I just have two questions:

  1. Is this a problem with all FRC teams to a degree? Is this just what happens when you have a club full of immature high schoolers? Are teams just putting on a facade to keep up their image while hiding problems underneath? It feels like every other team is doing fine while we can’t even focus on building a dang robot because of all the other issues that have to be overcome first.
  2. Does anyone have any tips on how these problems could be remedied? We don’t have many options for new leadership, and changing issues with team culture is a daunting task.
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This might be the minority opinion, but I will say that after I quit my first team from severe mentor issues, I couldn’t find a team to join due to all of the local teams having culture issues that wouldn’t be healthy for me. And I had 8+ teams in a 10 mile radius of me.

Luckily I found a new community team that got started, and had an incredible experience with some of the best mentors and students I’ve worked with.

It’s a really common problem where students feel trapped on their team and can’t find a new environment to be in. In other circumstances they just don’t know better. Generally speaking, you don’t hear about these teams since they are basically invisible and silent.

I hope FIRST can do better to help this culture.

:slight_smile:

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Bull. :poop:.

If you’re overloaded, and nothing is being done to address that, you all quit. The team will either reallocate the work, or the work won’t get done, and it’ll hopefully wake someone up that “we have a problem, maybe we should ask these guys that just left what’s going on”. Whether the people leaving form a community team or not is up to them, but that’s not an easy thing to do, at least in FRC.

I will say that this is often a problem with groups of people in general, to varying degrees. The various issues you’re outlining are not unique to y’all; it may be that the severity is unique to your team, but some of these issues are playing into and playing off of each other. (e.g., good leadership could head off the lack of respect, drive team culture, and valuation of work issues).

The first thing to do, is you have not already, is to bring up the issues to team leadership, emphasizing that you’re considering leaving for your own mental health if this isn’t addressed. If nothing happens, or it gets worse…

School administration. That move isn’t a surefire “things will get fixed”–it could result in the team being shut down–but if there’s anything affecting student wellbeing that CAN be fixed, most schools will try. (Whether they should or not is a completely different question.) Mentors not being able to track finances is a potential red flag for any student organization, and possibly a gateway to getting school administration to take a closer look…

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This is unfortunate to hear. Personally, I can only really answer your first question by saying that I see slight symptoms of this on my own team, but not to this degree. I feel it is something that to some degree comes with immature high schoolers and has a bit to do with human nature. BUT, I think the extent to which it exists on your team is not a normal amount, and it’s not just due to having a club full of immature high schoolers. Your mentors/adult leadership are clearly not dealing with the situation properly, and from what it sounds like are actively contributing to the problem.

As for how to solve this, I’m not quite sure. I know some people might say that its for the best that you try to solve the issues with the team, but really, its not your fault, and you shouldn’t have to solve them.

There’s nothing wrong with just quitting the team. Even if the team “would not be able to compete” without you (which realistically is kinda unlikely) you still don’t owe the team anything really if they’re treating their members like this.

I hope if you look around there is probably some other STEM activity you could join, which maybe you could find some replacement in, but I understand if this isn’t the case.

Best of luck.

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Dude just leave. You don’t owe them anything - if they can’t build a robot without you they can cope. If you’re not happy in the program, do what makes you happy. Leave, try something else. Maybe there’s another team that’s better around you. Maybe there isn’t and there just aren’t any good robotics opportunities nearby. It sucks but some of these teams are amazing to be on while others shouldn’t even exist.

Always always always do what’s best for you.

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Many of these lessons apply to “real life” too, with the added benefit here that you don’t need to be looking to join another FRC team in the background.

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I should add that our coaches are very resistant to feedback, and we are a fully community-based team, so school administration unfortunately isn’t an answer. The coaches would also not take the words “mentally straining” seriously at all, so mentioning that wouldn’t be a wakeup call–it would be viewed as a personal issue. They’re also so heavily involved in the social issues that trying to break those down as students wouldn’t be super effective, unfortunately. We also have essentially zero options for any adult leadership replacement. It sucks because even though leaving the team would send a strong message and probably be better for us, we have so few members that the team would probably be shut down forever. Even with its flaws, I still love this team and robotics and don’t want it to go away, especially because there are literally no other local robotics options.

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I haven’t ran into an issue quite like this but similar as a drive team member refused to do the work that was allocated to their project team. We solved this by just giving them a warning (Mentors and student leadership involved) then if it kept on going, they would end up being kicked off the drive team.

Overall, if these issues can’t seem to be solved or are known about and just ignored. Then I would do what is best for me and quit, even though if you feel like the team might fall apart when you or others quit but they still have the problems listed, then they could learn the outcomes of their actions and either try to fix the issues or keep ignoring them and let other members quit.

Just remember, FRC isn’t your entire life.

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Sounds like a case of “some things aren’t worth saving”.

You don’t have good adult leadership, you don’t have a replacement for same, and you don’t have school admin. Your options are news crews or parents–or quit.

I’m going to tell you straight up: Time to quit. You can listen to what I’m saying or not, but I would suggest quitting (and then, after a month or so, look for other STEM activities to do, either solo or with a small group of friends).

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Leave! The point of FRC is to have fun and learn. This doesn’t sound like something that’s healthy for you to be a part of. Echoing the fact that you don’t owe them anything.

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Problems sound way too big for you to fix. I hear you loud and clear that you’d like to be a part of a well-functioning FRC team, but you don’t happen to have one of those. It’s time to leave. Once your time is free, maybe you will be able to find another activity that also interests you. Don’t be concerned at all that your team might not be able to compete or survive without you. Also, don’t be surprised if they continue to compete and survive.

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Walk away.

If you really really want FRC on your resume during HS, then volunteer at events, aim towards being a good holistic person, not burned out at the end of HS. Being on a team is just one way to be involved in this program.

FWIW, As a mentor, or employer or college admissions I would be interested in learning how you negotiated a tough situation you are emotionally invested in.

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First and foremost robotics is a 4th place activity. In our team handbook we define it as such : " Robotics can be classified as a “fourth place activity”. A student’s priorities should be their health (physical and mental), academics, and personal responsibilities." If you and any of your other responsibilities are being effected by the team culture it is a duty to yourself to take care of them.

Is this just what happens when you have a club full of immature high schoolers?

There are many factors that can go into a team dynamic. Some high schoolers are immature, as a high schooler I see this all the time. I will even admit that I’m not the most mature person. But it doesn’t come down to immaturity, imo it comes down to intention. Some people will take a leadership position because it looks good on college applications or because they think is makes them better than other students. The students that should be in leadership positions are the ones who see what the program does. They can see the effect it has on people and what it can do for them. They also should be aware that just because one is in a leadership position does not make them above anyone else. A leader (especially on an FRC team) is there to support. They support their team members, mentors, and the learning experience of the program.

MSP how things should be
MSP how things should be1450Ă—551 8.56 KB

Something I think that gets lost in some FRC teams is that the program is supposed to be a learning experience. Teams can sometimes over prioritize robot performance. I like to think of it as a good robot will be evident if the students building said robot are learning. Team dynamic issues will definitely affect learning.

Are teams just putting on a façade to keep up their image while hiding problems underneath?

That question is tricky. It is not as simple as a yes or no.

All I will say is that at comp teams will reflect themselves. The way they interact with others and behave can be major indicators of what a team culture is like. Out of respect for all teams in the program I am not going to speak anymore on that question as each team is different and how teams decide to run themselves is up to them.

Does anyone have any tips on how these problems could be remedied? We don’t have many options for new leadership, and changing issues with team culture is a daunting task.

Something like that is very daunting and I can’t blame you for being hesitant.

The question you need to ask yourself is do you have the bandwidth to attempt change. If you are incredibly busy with schoolwork and non robotics obligations I would say that leaving outright is your best option. If you are willing and have the bandwidth to attempt to change things I would try and do so. Making a change would not only benefit you it would also benefit others and many more down the road.

For something that is easy and might get things going. I would suggest the Martin Luther route. Write down all of your grievances with the current situation. Make sure they are clear and concise. Be ready to talk about them. Find other people on your team that agree with your writing of grievances. Have as many students as you can sign the paper. The more students the better. Take the signed piece of paper to a mentor, do this step in group of two or three, not alone. Take a trusted adult with you if you would like. If they are open to discussion about how you feel I would work with them to improve the team. If they seem complacent and not willing to open up talks. Leave the team.

If the adults are not willing to improve or even engage in discussion it is not worth your time. If you can get other people to leave with you that would be even better.

I am going to link my teams handbook as a resource. This is what I would expect from any FRC team I am a part of. This handbook was developed by students in conjunction with mentors. Mentors were only there to advise and proof read. The only part of the handbook that was written by a mentor is the Youth Protection Section.

I hope things will improve

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From a coach’s perspective, if I had a group of, or even one, students thinking about leaving the team due to any issue, I’d want to know about it right away. Feedback helps us all improve and hopefully change the situation.
One of the things that we as coaches and mentors on our team repeat often is that, “We don’t use students to build robots, we use robots to build students.” We try to keep that perspective. If students on our team aren’t learning and having at least some fun in a safe environment, then we are not doing our job correctly. Students’ lives are busier than ever. If you need to cut something out, this would probably be the thing.

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Theaterarchery

First of all, coolest username I’ve seen in a while. It just raises so many interesting questions.
The scenario you are living through is not particular to FRC, it happens at all levels of human activity.
My advice in these situations is always the same. Talk to the people most important to you. Usually, hopefully, family. Ask for a one on one with the Lead Mentor. Never openly discuss quitting, that’s rarely helpful, and often makes it worse. If you decide you can’t keep doing this then exit with class and move on. In my experience students who can do FRC well can and will excel at the next things they take on.
Best wishes
T

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I’ll go against the crowd and say you should not just leave. There are a number of YPP issues here on student mental safety that you should report. Adult mentors should not be creating or permitting an environment where students are deliberately humiliated or shamed (Code of Conduct violations). Likewise, if they are contributing to an environment where students are suffering anxiety attacks and breakdowns, those are YPP issues. I encourage you to report it and get other levels of FIRST leadership involved in your area. Just walking away allows the environment to persist and other students to be harmed.

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@theaterarchery I’m sorry you feel like this. Building FRC robots is a very challenging task. With this challenge comes stress and pressure to perform. Different people react to this stress and pressure differently. However, the mentors/adults are responsible for leading and ensuring the students have the best experience possible. After all, the goal is to encourage students to lean towards STEM after high school. Unfortunately, like with many youth activities, it often ends up being the adults that ruin the experience for the kids. Overall team behavior completely falls under the responsibility of the adults. It may make you feel better to speak up and get your opinions off your chest, even if ultimately, it falls on deaf ears. Knowing when you need to remove yourself from unhealthy situations is a very useful skill. Your well-being has to be a priority.

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Adding to that, I would also contact the Program Delivery Partner (PDP) for your area and have them get in touch with your area’s Senior Mentor.

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I’m only posting to add one more voice to the chorus. These folks who are advising you to quit the team and report the team problems to your area’s PDP are experienced and smart, they care about you and your teammates, and they are RIGHT. It’s time for you to leave. Take care of yourself first, then if you have energy for it, contact the higher up authorities within FIRST (locally, in your state or province, and at HQ) to let them know what’s going on. @AdamF, @tjwolter, @Skyehawk, @EricH, @Andrew_L and others here know what they are talking about.

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That sucks, I’m lucky I never experienced all of this