I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)

FIRST General Forum
#32

This is a good idea, no wait, a great idea. We have kinda the samething here, the mentors don’t get there until 4-5pm, and the high school ends aroud 2:30, I think. This time should be used for studying and not just waiting for the mentors or playing games.

I more or less paraphrased than quoted, but your right. You should never miss a class if your in college, and it doesn’t matter if its a community college or a university. Unless your sick, car problems, or something more important comes up. I know theres already a thread on this subject, but It also needs to be here. This thread is mostly about the high schoolers, but does apply the college students.

I started this post before you posted, but 100 students! You must have a lot of fun with that many people. Anyhoo, I’m off the subject and need to go get ready for something. Thats my final 2 cents.

#33

[quote=Jherbie53]…
I more or less paraphrased than quoted, but your right. You should never miss a class if your in college, and it doesn’t matter if its a community college or a university. Unless your sick, car problems, or something more important comes up. I know theres already a thread on this subject, but It also needs to be here. This thread is mostly about the high schoolers, but does apply the college students…QUOTE]

It is not only students who have to make sure their “work” is done…we the adult mentors have responsibilities to our employers…we have to make sure our work is done as well…unlike students…we do not get second chances. When your parents say that school is a job…they are not wrong.

Pat Chen[/quote]

#34

This is a good post to remind students of… part of me wishes it were well before build season! I think most get the point, grades HAVE to come first. Now that doesnt mean every student needs a 4.0 GPA, but every student should have an aim of a passing grade or higher.

I see Tom’s point that college isnt for everyone… but high school is the time to figure that out… and guess what? If grades dont come first, college WONT be an option. So unless you decide in middleschool that you arent going to EVER go to college, then grades should be your number one priority. Again, that doesnt mean sacrificing FIRST or the swimteam to get a 4.3 GPA (yes some kids at PHS have that… ugh!), but it does mean getting all your work done and trying as hard as you can with the time you have. Good time management (passing up bowling with your friends to do your geometry homework) will do WONDERS for your high school career. Plus, the aim of FIRST is to inspire students in science and technology… and tell me how many jobs in science and technology there are that dont require a college education?

We had a hard time on our team because this year we attracted some students who didnt always have great grades. We had to turn some away from competition. We had to ask a few to stop attending meetings until their grades came up… we even had to give away one’s plane ticket because his mother said his grades had dropped. Every instance of this was painful for all of us, but it has to be done. All of our kids have their sights set on college, so they have to keep their grades up. I would have to say most learned from it and brought their grades up, or are still trying.

There were many times this year that students or parents came up to me (guiltily) and said that they needed to miss a meeting, or couldnt come to build because they had too much homework or to study for a test. EVERY time my response was the same… I will NEVER be dissappointed if they are skipping their FIRST responsibilities for studies. The team can still survive, their resume for college wont.

And in closing, I know too many students who in college decided that they didnt need to care about freshman year, or a class they didnt like… they would squeak by with 2.0’s or something, and then think they could make it up later… they were WRONG. So many of them ended up with 2.7’s and the such, and while that is not bad, I can tell you right now that as a key recruiter for Harris, corporate WILL NOT let us hire any college grad’s with less than a 2.8. Some comapanies are 3.0’s. So learn how to get those good grades now… it WILL make a difference.

#35

I spent most of today typing and retyping replies to thread, I wanted to get it perfect. I finally got it perfect, looked, and Kim has already said what I wanted to say. Thanks Kim!

I hope this thread helps students realize their priorities need to be on school work first and I hope it helps teams that have to deal with this problem.

I ask that you keep posting helpful things and stories here, so the thread stays visible for awhile at the very least, the more people who see it the better I think.

Thank you everyone. :slight_smile:

#36

While I really, truly appreciate the comments made in this thread, I can only say that I recommend that you never let schools and grades get in the way of getting an education.

Very little of what I use on a daily basis in my career are things I learned in my formal education, but when I was young I developed a passion for learning that has stood me in good stead during 23 years in the high-tech industry. Learning to learn on my own and writing clearly are the two most important results of my early education. The content of what I learned in high school and college has largely been made obsolete since I graduated, but thinking and learning never go out of style.

As for grades, the less said the better. Grades are a bizarre artifact of the educational industry that ought to be eliminated – and the sooner the better. I have a whole rant that I do on the subject, but let’s just say that the older I get, the less sense they make to me. (And for the record, I had good grades in school. This isn’t sour grapes.)

#37

Rick, I’d guess that you and I are of about the same educational vintage. I concur with all of what you said above.

Early in my engineering career I got involved in the college recruiting team for my first post-college employer, in the defense sector of TRW in southern California. Although Kim’s experiences in that kind of activity are more recent than mine, her posts (above here and elsewhere) show me that not much has changed. Grades are still used as a primary screen when evaluating entry-level candidates for engineering positions. So Kim and others are correct to caution all college students not to let their grades slip. [My own experience with college grades is remarkably similar to Kim’s, although my extracurricular activities were different.]

All that said about grades, Rick’s points are more important in the long run. The ability to learn on your own and to communicate ideas effectively are the most important skills – they are elements of that most prized of team members, the self-starter.

Sometime during your career, a fundamental technological change, a global political trend, or a strategic business decision will very likely create a shift in the demand for people with your skill-set (whatever it may be!), and when that happens you will fare much better if you are one of the self-starters.

#38

I have to agree that being a good learner and a self-starter are definitely very important in the long run of life. And I also have to say that I cant entirely agree with the grading system schools use. I want to think that teachers are “getting it” more and more, by giving students credit for effort, partial credit on incorrect answers, and relying more and more on project work for grades. I had a class at RIT where there were NO exams. It was all on small projects and the final project. So I feel in that case grading is fair… but yes, the fill in the bubble exams really just tell you how good the student is at finding the answer. And dont even get me started on the NY Regents… lol.

But as exampled by many of us here, it is possible to learn to be a good learner, a self starter, a leader AND get decent grades. I dont think the students need to choose. I think they can do it all in this case. All are important, and its definitely NOT necessary to have a 4.0. In fact, my boss told me last year NOT to hire students with a 4.0 (obviously cavioted with the fact that there are exceptions). In general they are too work focused and too book smart to have the common sense that my department needs (we travel a lot to strange places, have to think fast and out of the box often).

So I want to propose that most of us are on the same side of the coin. We dont need to choose which is more important (learning or grades). When done correctly and in the right proportion, students can choose both.

#39

Yes.

#40

Cybersonics (103) requires every student on the team to maintain Honor Status throughout the year. In order to join the team, students are interviewed by team officers and mentors after a submission of there current GPA (at least 3.0), application, and letter of recommendation. All report cards are reviewed by team advisor’s, who are teachers at the school when handed out. Anyone that is unable to maintain their grades while participating in FIRST will forfeit their attendance at competitions and/or other team activities.

Corey

#41

That is a good point about failing classes for FIRST. Our team has a minimum grade average in order to stay on. Not very high to exclude some kids but high enough that you have to go to class and do well. No failing grades either. It’s very fair and keeps the students from cutting and going straight into robotics for the entire day.

#42

I hate to say this, but it sounds like you are excluding kids. You may not be, but it sounds like it. FIRST should be open to all students, no matter what their grades are at the beginning of the season. Not letting them go to a competition because of their grades is fine, but not letting anyone with a GPA less than 3.0 join doesn’t sound right. Also it sounds like you are trying to perpare them for the real world by making them go thew a interview, thats a good thing. I may be interpreting this wrong and if I am please correct me.

Thats so right, and I’m just in my third semester of college and I know that you’ve got to want to learn or be left behind. Also there are classes that you might not need in your job. If your like me and are pursuing a technical career, then you don’t need “normal” english classes. Just ones that help your communication skill in writing.

Anyhoo, again I’m off the main subject and I must of lied earlier when I said that was my “final thoughts on this.” I’m not going too lie again, because I just might think of something that I want to say, again.

#43

I hate to say this, but it sounds like you are excluding kids.

Unmatched dedication, effort, and hard work is required from each member in order to have a successful team and participate in FIRST. We do consider students with a GPA lower than 3.0, however we must make sure that they will be able to maintain their grades while being involved in the program. In reference to past experiences, if an individual is a C- student, they probably will not be able to provide the dedication and constant effort that all the other members are exhibiting. For clarification, if an individual does not have a 3.0 GPA, but demonstrates other high-qualities and is committed - we will not turn them away. To insure commitment, we put all members under a “6-week review period.” For 6 weeks (starting from the beginning of the school year), advisor’s and officers monitor each new student to see if they are doing well in school and participating in fundraisers. Each member is required to obtain three local contributors for sponsorship as well as selling tickets for our two annual fundraisers. Also let me add, that 103 has established a strong tutoring program that aids current members who are having trouble in a class(es) maintain honorable grades. We are not “excluding kids”, but rather setting a standard for individuals to improve their grades and overall excellence in school to participate in FIRST.

#44

There are requirements for sportsplayers’ grades… why should FIRST be any different? Yes, help is offered but if someone chooses to not take it, to not focus on education - a point of FIRST - then they must take what comes (ie:off the team)

#45

Funny trend on our team regarding grades, the more trips the student goes on and the more involved the student is, their GPA is on average higher. I don’t know if this is because they are the people that strive for the best or what but its just an odd relation to grades and first.
-guy

#46

Most schools have policies governing grades and extra-curricular activities. Our school is a 2.0 min GPA and no F for both athletics and extra-curricular stuff like band and robotics.

But be careful as Jherbie53 metnioned about excluding students. If your team is made up of all 4.0 students, great, but if they were 4.0 students before FIRST, then I think you’re missing an opportunity to bring in a more diverse population of students that can greatly benefit from what FIRST has to offer. Can grades slip during a FIRST season, yep; can we take steps to minimize, sure. But in the end of a year, the general trend is that grades tend to go up for students in FIRST. A study has already shown this.

There are a lot of middle of the road, 2.5-3.5 GPA, students out there that can really benefit from FIRST that I feel get overlooked too often. As a coach, I often try to recruit those really sharp students, but I too have to remind myself to also look for those other students with the skills to do well in our program. I hope we all look to have more of those students on our teams.

#47

That is a perfect statement! For me, its not the kids that come in wanting to do engineering and learn more about engineering that I call my success stories… its the kids that come in with the low GPAs, or zero interest in robots (maybe they came because their friends joined, or they wanted to travel or even because they just didnt want to go home), and came out with decent GPAs and an interest in engineering or something technical that are the true successes of this program!

#48

I suppose I fit in with that description. When I joined my team I had a very low GPA (around a 2.1) and had absolutely no interest in robots or engineering, but I was already heavily interested computer science. I didn’t join because of friends joining (actually I didn’t know anyone from the team) and I didn’t even know about the traveling, but I joined because my computer programming and physics teachers both recommended that I do so. I eventually gave in and joined, although I wasn’t very enthusiastic about the whole thing. This year I have had a GPA of 3.888 (my highest ever) and I have gained an interest in embedded systems programming. I am also considering making my minor be in electrical engineering (my major will be computer science).

This is only my opinion, but I really think that a student’s GPA has no relevance to showing how much a student can get out of FIRST, nor can it show how much dedication and/or effort a student is willing to put in.

#49

Amen. Hallelujah. Whenever I read things like “everyone on our team has to be an honors student” I want to throw something.

For
Inspiration and
Recognition of
Science and
Technology

You’ll note that FIRST’s slogan does not include “for those students who are so self-motivated that they don’t really need a program like this anyway.” If we don’t use our program to motivate kids who are struggling to find some reason to care about school, what’s the point? Setting high grades standards to participate is EXACTLY the wrong policy to enforce. You are automatically excluding those whose lives could be the most transformed by the experience.

I just want to add that there is a positive correlation between intelligence and grades, but it is far from a strong one. You can get good grades by working hard, but “smart” is mostly born. Bored smart kids are so common in school that it is practically a cliche. Excluding those without good grades does not even insure that you are getting the school’s best and brightest on your team.

#50

I totally agree. Half of the responses in this thread make me sick.

I also agree with your points about lack of motivation. I was at the top of my class until school stopped being fun. I like solving problems. I don’t like memorizing things just to get high scores on the exam, without really learning anything. Yet, it just so happens a majority of students need to learn this way, so that is how the material is taught. Without* FIRST* I probably would have dropped out of school by now.

(Then again, this is coming from someone who tries to “solve” questions in English class mathematically…)

#51

FIRST was meant to promote peer and mentor inspiration, not exclusion. Many students not on the honor roll may be sticking with high school just because of the challege FIRST offers them. Sticking to a high school’s athletic requirements are one thing, but treating the joining of a team like a job interview or college application is another.

My team requires no less than a C in Math and Science, and it is checked once a year: when a student joins the team. Rarely do grades become a problem. Many of us actually balance FIRST with part-time jobs, challenging courses, and other extracurriculars. Some people can handle it, some people can’t. It’s a personal decision that must be made solely by the person in question. If a college student feels they can handle the work load of their courses and mentor a FIRST team, they should. If they feel they can’t, they shouldn’t. There should be no issue as to whether college students in general have the ability to mentor.

Education is important, but for some, FIRST is their education.