Idea - Overlap Infinite Recharge Replay with the Subsequent FRC Game Release

The “Should we replay Infinite Recharge” poll currently shows that 58% of respondents either want to replay the game (25%), are ok with replaying the game (19%), or are currently not sure if they want to replay the game (14%). 39% are against replay.

The pros and cons of each option have been heavily debated, and I myself am strongly in favor of replay, but I also understand the blah’s people have against it. I just set the sustainability of teams and protection of their investments and financial/human capital flexibility above all other concerns.

But I have an idea (described by one esteemed mentor colleague as “neat”) that could permit Infinite Recharge replay, get those on the fence to buy into replay, AND placate those who want a new game to chew on.

Replay Infinite Recharge in 2021 (with any tweaks the GDC might want to toss at us), but also RELEASE THE NEXT FRC GAME at 2021 Kickoff

The new game would be played in 2022. Everything returns to normal in 2023.

I will list the pros of this scenario, as I can imagine them. I will leave it to others to provide supplemental reasons to support this idea, as well as any arguments against. Again, I place anything that helps teams survive and PROTECT THEIR FINANCIAL AND HUMAN ASSETS during this ongoing period of uncertainty above all else. I also place elimination of wasted resources above most everything else. I am not alone. I listened in on a conference call between Ohio officials and teams this past weekend. Some team leaders are very concerned about the future of their programs and are looking to FIRST to make smart decisions that help them protect what they have built.

PROS

  • Absolutely GUARANTEES that FIRST will not be tossing 2 perfectly-viable FRC games into the trash as a result of COVID-19. Understand this now, folks - NO ONE KNOWS when governments en masse will permit competitive events of the scale of FRC competitions again. Professional and collegiate sports teams have NO IDEA currently when they will restart. Replaying Infinite Recharge will set up the situation where it can once again fall on the sword for all of us should the 2021 competition season be forcibly denied due to whatever may still come our way. Do not RUSH to trash a 2nd straight game and put teams in the same situation as last year. Heck - right now, we don’t even know when public schools will let teams return to meeting on school premises.

  • Permits teams (especially 2020 rookies and single-event teams who never competed and HECK - even those who DID) to re-use/improve their existing 2020 robots, protecting their investment, extracting more enjoyment, and reducing internal waste.

  • Allows re-use of all the playing field elements our 2020 event fees paid to build. We aren’t just tossing that expense in the garbage. Over 5/7 of the 2020 game season had yet to be played. Also permits use of trophies, medals, signage, and other game-specific materials that would cost even more money to replace or revise. Far less waste. [Edit - as my team never played the 2020 game, I don’t mind if the awards retain “2020” on them for events that were never played. You would have the situation where events that were played last year would have “2021” on the new awards, and the rest retain 2020. I think that’s fine. We are not so much “replaying” the season as we are extending and completing it over the course of 2 years. But being consistent with 2021 is also ok - just costs more money HQ doesn’t necessarily have to spend.]

  • Permits those looking for a fresh challenge and who are satisfied with their 2020 robots to pursue new designs. Does NOT preclude those who still have work to do on their 2020 robots from also throwing mental muscle behind the new game.

  • Provides a greater demand for new parts purchases in 2021, supporting FRC suppliers without treating all teams as merely a supply of funding to pad bottom lines. This is a compromise.

  • An extended build for the new game relaxes pressures on team personnel, many of whom may be effected for an extended period (unemployment, lack of time to mentor, loss of mentors due to illness, etc.) due to the effects of COVID-19 and government lockdowns. And we’ve already dispensed with the nanny state mandates of imposing a specific limited build schedule on all teams. Bag day is dead and buried. Teams were left to police their own build schedules last year. I’m sure they can continue to do so with such an extended, one-time-only build for the new game and pace themselves how they see fit. They can even choose to ignore the game entirely until the traditional build season if they want. Freedom of choice is lovely.

  • Volunteers are also very much at risk of being affected by COVID fallout. Game replay retains existing volunteer training and knowledge. Since this knowledge is already widely distributed, it would be easier for the group as a whole to identify and train replacements for 2021 should there be a volunteer shortage.

  • The extended lead-up to the 2022 game competition season would ALSO permit HQ to recruit volunteers/deploy training for that game at a much more leisurely pace. I am certain they are also under a lot of pressure - this game overlap can become a boon for them as well, in many areas.

  • Corporate sponsors are absolutely going to be affected. Their rate of giving is likely to drop, possibly significantly, both to events, and to teams. Wouldn’t it be WONDERFUL if both events and teams had their existing costs reduced via replay, such that it would be easier for them to react if/when they don’t receive what they are used to getting from larger sponsors? I think it would be golly gee whillickers freakin SWELL.

  • BIG IF TRUE - Replay and re-use of game materials generates a rather large cost savings to FRC - maximizes the possibility HQ may find it in the kindness of their heart to return some of the teams’ lost 2020 investment in the form of fee eliminations/reductions next year. I cannot imagine any chance of that happening with a brand new game release (gotta rush rush rush rush to build those new fields, folks, and those don’t pay for themselves!) unless somebody like Dean himself or some heroic corporate sponsor or foundation writes a giant bailout check to fund it.


Again, I leave it to others to define the Cons. I will give one - 2021 senior drive team members would have to drive their 2020 robot. Well gee, that beats out driving NO ROBOT AT ALL, eh 2020 senior drivers who never saw the field? This idea maximizes value, minimizes risk, recognizes the desire of teams to continue to have fresh challenges to pursue, and above all, provides TIME and FLEXIBILITY for stakeholders to more carefully navigate the choppy waters that will continue to toss us about for a currently-undefined period of future time.

Have fun!


Oh, and I would be remiss if I didn’t state that regardless of what HQ decides to do as a game for next season, proceeding along with the 2020 payment/refund policy in place for a 2021 season that is fraught with uncertainty would be A VERY BAD IDEA, leading to many teams making VERY INTERESTING DECISIONS to protect themselves. I really hope HQ is actively working on a way to protect teams’ financial interests next year and beyond. We’ll see!

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What costs specifically do you feel like replaying 2020 would save on the team side? Obviously the robot costs, but for a lot of teams that is a small part of the budget compared to travel and registration (of course, some savings is better than none at all).

I’ve been in support of replaying 2020 from the amount it would also save HQ in terms of game and field development costs (not really expecting that these savings would be passed down to teams). However, I believe FIRST has already stated that a fairly significant chunk of expected 2021 game development costs have already been incurred.

Due to this, I’m a bit more on the fence now about how significant the savings would be from replaying the 2020 game.

I agree with the rest of your post, but this just comes off as a thinly veiled thread against HQ…not sure if that’s really productive discourse.

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My main problem with this plan is extending out the negatives with very few real positives over just replaying the game.

The main issue for me is how much it exacerbates the difference between lower resource and rookie teams. Teams that can afford to build a robot for the next game have an immediate advantage over a team that can only afford to field their 2020 robot. Additionally rookie teams will be a year behind everyone else.

Additionally, you have all the same complaints people bring up about repeating the game. You still don’t have a new challenge for 2022 build season. Seniors next year who build a 2022 robot will not get to compete with it while the juniors will feel the same frustrations as this year’s juniors.

I could also see this causing many severe arguments within teams as seniors will want to focus on the replay while juniors will probably want to focus on the new game to have a better chance at doing well when they are seniors. I do not want teams to be forced to decide who to prioritize in this way which could cause a great deal of resentment.

Edit: To summarize I think just replaying would be a better solution if FIRST determines it is necessary

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Teams are going to fold because they can’t afford registration, not because they can’t build a bot. A replay doesn’t help out. Do you want to pay another 5-9K for the same game?

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Want, no; would, yes.

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I think it is fair to say if FIRST invokes their cancellation policy that a lot of teams won’t come back. I think they know that hence the postponed status.

Personally - I am guessing most of the currently postponed events eventually get played. It seems like the same things that would keep those events from being rescheduled in the Fall are the same things that would keep FIRST from being able to open registration for a 2021 season.

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Imagine you are a team with just a single mentor or a small mentor base. Imagine that due to COVID and the Lockdowns (new band name), they will be able to provide even less guidance and oversight of the project. Even if students run the show, they still typically require adult oversight. Meeting frequency and duration may decline for many teams.

Now imagine these teams are asked to play a brand new game under the same timings as always. Ignoring the likely fact they will have far less (if any) time to fundraise for this upcoming season (oh look - another PRO for replay - fundraising relief) in an environment where typical donors may be far less likely to give, what are the chances such teams waste time and MONEY on a less-than-fully-realized design due to the inability of the team to acquire and allocate sufficient resources toward that project in the compressed timeframe required? THAT is the significant risk teams face if HQ charges ahead with a new game.

Now introduce replay into the mix. A team already (hopefully) has a robot. They don’t need to devote time and money toward its creation - perhaps only toward optimization and/or spare parts accumulation. If they can’t meet as often due to COVID-related causes, they are more likely to be able to field a competitive robot for next season, at a FAR REDUCED EXPENSE OF TIME AND MONEY. They also can take more of their time and devote it toward raising funds for travel/logistics. I think MANY teams would appreciate that kind of “passive” relief.

Well I could fully unveil it, but I tend to be even more unpleasant when doing so. Here’s the thing - if FIRST says, once again, it will keep your money if any/all of the 2021 events are cancelled, with full knowledge this time that cancellation could be a possibility, how in the heck are you going to fault teams who simply tell them they aren’t forking over their money to HQ this year? Either at all, or at least until the events are guaranteed to occur? If FIRST puts the entire financial burden/risk upon teams’ shoulders, then no one should fault teams if they decide to take measures that protect themselves above any other organization, construct, ideal, creed, or whatever.

Teams can do whatever they want if the terms are not fair to them, in their opinions. They can boycott the season. They can switch to another program. Or they may just give up in disgust and cease operations. Teams are not beholden to HQ to shower them with hard-earned fundage if they feel there is a significant risk of those competitions AGAIN not being played. HQ sets the guidelines, sure - but teams then have the right to make decisions serving their best interest - especially if other people’s decisions run counter to teams’ self-preservation.

Now as I said, I will wait and see. But this particular wheel is getting squeaked well in advance of registration/payment time. HQ may already be planning to modify their payment policy in light of 2021 uncertainties, or they may have decided to stick with the status quo - I don’t know. Heck they may even have a grand plan to provide “active” relief to teams in the form of fee reductions/eliminations (it seems that many believe this unlikely - a person can dream!) But it does no team any good to stick their head in the sand and remain ignorant of this very important topic that remains to be addressed. Discuss it, think about it, prepare and plan for either eventuality.

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Agreed. One of the toughest challenges for FIRST right now (as an organization simply trying to stay afloat) is assessing just how many teams will fold if they don’t get some money back. If enough do/would fold, it’s possible that FIRST saves some money on the horizon by giving back some money now.

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How was it not a possibility before?

If you asked FIRST staff in September 2019 if they thought that the 2020 season would have to be suspended due to a global pandemic threatening society, I don’t think a single person would have told you yes.

If you ask FIRST staff in May 2020 if they think that the 2021 season may have to be suspended due to a global pandemic threatening society, I don’t think a single person would tell you no.

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I don’t disagree. But the cancellation policy was in place in 2019 as a precaution for a reason, right? In the incredibly unlikely (at the time) event of a cancellation, no refunds would be given. Why would the likely chance of a cancellation change that policy?

I think more teams vocalizing their displeasure like @Travis_Hoffman might be the only way. Or FIRST is fine with teams folding/sitting this one out or whatever it is @Travis_Hoffman has in mind.

For the significant plurality of teams that have a single play, travel costs are not likely to be significant. Since neither a kit bot or credit would be reissued, the single event registration fee could be deeply discounted.

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I agree that FIRST HQ should be called out on their hostile refund policies - they’re behaving more like Ticketmaster than like a nonprofit created to inspire high school students with robotics.
FIRST HQ was at least forthright with their no-refund policy, but that doesn’t change the fact that requiring teams to shoulder 100% of the burden of the cancelled regionals was very unfriendly towards teams.

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The build season would be OVER A YEAR LONG. The extreme duration of the build would heavily cancel out any perceived “advantage” a well-resourced team has over the lesser. Higher-resourced teams may out-iterate the competition, but at some point, most of them realize it isn’t productive to continue dumping time, money, and material into doing so relative to the amount of improvement gained. Stretching the build out would actually permit many teams to “catch up” (perhaps this is a “CON” in the column of some teams). One might expect the early weeks of the 2022 season to see some of the best competition ever. This doesn’t even factor in anything FIRST might do to vet their fields early via scrimmages (offseasons? preseasons? so many interesting possibilities) given all the extra time. Imagine a game where almost all the bugs are squashed BEFORE it is played, because, for once, compressed timing isn’t a factor? Yeah, working well under that pressure can be satisfying - NOT during/shortly after a global pandemic. Let’s all R-E-L-A-XXXXXXXXX a bit such that ALL teams (and event planners, and FIRST HQ, and Sponsors/Donors…) can catch their breaths.

For at-risk teams especially, the way to look at it is not only does EVERYONE get plenty of time to build their 2022 robot at a greatly relaxed pace, they also especially get more time in the near term avoiding expense of resources/accumulation of stress about designing and building a new robot and instead pursue sustainability operations such as FUNDRAISING. Add mentor recruitment to the list, or student education, should their human capital also be adversely affected by what is going on. If you truly want to PUNISH troubled teams, drop a new robot stress bomb on them on top of everything else they will be dealing with.

Also, for new rookies being at a disadvantage? Let’s ignore the fact that new rookies are starting out with a WEALTH of existing match videos, release videos, and ACTUAL CAD of robots that either competed or were proven effective by their designers - all of it IN ADVANCE of their build season starting. Did 2020 rookies have that? Nooooooooooope. But also, IF GP IS A REAL CONSTRUCT, would not those better-resourced teams out there who would be short-term thumb twiddling because their 2020 bot is in the can now have more time to provide outreach for any struggling rookie teams? Again, the build season for the 2022 bot would be extremely long - many teams could afford to divert some resources to outreach for those in the community that would need it.

One might also ask if rookies should even decide to compete AT ALL in 2021, given expected challenges and uncertainties. One might conclude there could be a “rookie shortage” due to various pressures, so even if there existed rookie teams who put themselves on an island ignorant of all the IR resources available, and all the vet teams selfishly kept them on Ignorance Island by ignoring them, there simply won’t be that many of them.

  • By the way - what of 2020 rookies who never competed AND who received grants from NASA and elsewhere? They are in the same, possibly worse, boat as vet teams whose event fees were never fulfilled. Do they lose their rookie status? They never got to compete for RAS. Will they once again be considered for rookie awards? Will NASA reset the clock on their funding? Something to keep an eye on. Maybe 2021 again is best meant as a completion/catch-up year. Would-be brand new rookies might be better served waiting til 2022, with the BONUS that they will know the game in advance and can get started building for it in 2021 (all without having to drop a dime or possibly waste rookie status on such an uncertain situation). But I digress.

Everything about this plan is a COMPROMISE. I do grow weary of people lamenting about individuals not getting their perfect little design fantasies in a time where entire TEAMS are likely to not exist if steps aren’t taken to both recognize and ACCOMMODATE FOR their impending troubles. Let’s all remember that TEAMS, right now, know the least about their futures, because they have the most levels of administration above them who are completely in the dark about how all of this is to proceed - federal, state, FIRST, school district, individual mentors. For a great number of teams and their individual personnel, they are currently living under a great deal of fear, stress, anxiety, [insert adverse emotion here] as a result of all this uncertainty. Let’s dispense with the yeah-buts that are, in my opinion, relatively weak excuses to ignore the plight of teams and constituent members that are going to be in real jeopardy in the coming year+. I can certainly respect the desire of people to have an “untainted” experience - but I cannot respect the desire to have that experience at the great expense of others.

I feel I have gone to (obviously) great length to spell out the challenges many teams can/will face if they are pushed into a new game and what additional waste could be generated should we run with ALL NEW EVERYTHING in 2021, given the many, many layers of complex, uncontrollable uncertainty bearing their weight down upon the season-planning process right now. Those fortunate enough to have the confidence to be able to afford/deal with this blanket of blar should celebrate that fact, as well as the opportunity to design/build a 2022 robot and compete with a 2020 robot in 2021 instead of merely recycling the 2020 robot with no other fresh challenges. I know some kids attending virtual graduations right now who would figuratively KILL for that opportunity.

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I think FIRST had it in mind that events would be fulfilled in 2020, hence the “suspended” status. But if you think they could plan to fulfill them via replay of IR in 2021 (or even beyond with a new game if blar forces prevent 2021 competition) AND not charge the teams who’ve yet to compete, then…great, Yeehaw FIRST. All kudos to HQ in that scenario.

Other than trying to figure out how to pay to go to Orlando again (we were one of the Week 3 boots on the ground casualties), that would be swell. I’d imagine they’d accommodate some event swapping in such cases. I HOPE they would, anyway. Heck, no one knows when the events could even be held. Sooooo much of 2021 event planning seems like it is going to be delayed relative to normal development schedules. You can’t book venues if public gatherings are still being forcibly curtailed, right? I speak of 2021 as it will be a competition thing, but I know full well of all the existing pressures that might still wreck the season.

It would be great and I’d applaud the effort, but I’ve been operating under the assumption - especially as these lockdowns proceed along - that the events would go from “suspended” to “cancelled”, and team money goes “poof!”. Replay for next year would at least keep the dream alive that some of that “suspended” funding could be recovered and given back to teams. And if the 2021 competition season gets trashed due to whatever, IR is ready to take a bullet for everyone again (double Purple Heart). Releasing the new game would prevent teams who already competed from getting bored out of their gourds next season, and NOT PLAYING IT UNTIL 2022 protects that new game - and team investments of time and money - from suffering the same fate as 2020.

Let me be clear that under no circumstances do I believe IR should get a 3rd shot if 2021 competitions are cancelled. That’s why I’d love for he new game to be announced early. We could all look forward to something fresh in 2022.

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Economically I think this is a great move, however I just want to talk about this topic from a student’s perspective. As a senior there’s not much you can do either way, they’ve lost this season and are just hoping for off season to happen. From what my friends have told me, they know replay is a possibility, yet are afraid even if the game is replayed they won’t be able to work on the robot/attend the events due to college, and therefore the robot they built will no longer be “their robot” anymore as it has been altered so much from its original state.

Now onto the Juniors, I am a junior so I can explain this feeling the best. A replay to me, feels as though not only have I lost a competition season, but now I have lost a build season as well. I’m a programmer so I’ll spend a lot of time at the shop, and even when I can’t be the one to help out just being there and seeing the growth of a robot from nothing is amazing, and losing out on that would just suck. On top of that spending my last two years on one game, it just feels like I’ve lost out on something. I know many sophomores who feel similarly as well. I mentioned in another post that I am all for one competition to act as a closure to 2020, but I still think the 2021 game should just be played, that is in a world where money doesn’t exist.

Of course though we don’t live in a world like this, and money is necessary to make this program run. The solution mentioned would save FIRST and many FRC teams lots of money, especially with the obvious decline in sponsors that is likely to come. As much as I would love to just play the new game, I know the situation is much more complicated than that. For most students I have talked to while they would prefer to play the new game with some sort of off season for 2020, we realize that economically that may not be able to happen, and it sucks, but losing one build season is better than collapsing FIRST all together, and we’ll take what we can get.

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It’s not like they have that money sitting around in a vault collecting dust. It’s all sunk costs. They can’t give a refund because its already been spent. spent on the venues, kit of parts, fields, etc.

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I am also a Junior, and I feel your pain I really do. My competition go cancelled days before we were to attend, (an experience I’m sure many share) and I have a lot of uncertainty in my life as do the rest of us. No idea when we can safely go back to the shop, or what our fundraising situation will look like next year. If recruitment will be possible, or a million other things related to just robotics alone. I’ve been looking at the world around me and I just don’t see a world where 2021 can go on as planned. I would LOVE more than anything in the world to be in a place where we can all go play with robots safely. Where the economy isn’t in shambles and our mentors all able to provide for their families and for our teams. I’ve been trying to look at this in the long term though. As a mentor to FLL students who may not get their season this year either (I just don’t see any way for them to safely meet during the fall unless things change a lot between now and then, and that’s assuming the school is even open). I think a replay of infinite recharge gives a lot more flexibility to teams, sponsors, and FIRST, could save teams from going under, and that is more important to me than my personal experience and wishes regarding how this season and next (should have gone). That said, your feelings are valid. You’re allowed to be upset, to feel frustrated and to want a new season with a new experience for next year. I’ve been asking myself and all my friends to try and mourn for what could have been while also supporting FIRST in whatever difficult decision they make come 2021

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This still assumes that lower resource teams will catch up to the higher resource ones, and ill easily bet money that they will not do that. I doubt most teams are working at all actually for their 2020 bot, much less have plans for 2021.

This assumes that rookies know of TBA, CD, Grabcad, etc. Im still showing longstanding teams that TBA exists, so i doubt theyre going to find it right off the bat without some outside help.

Theyre probably scrambling to secure funds just like everyone else.

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It certainly is frustrating for teams. These fees are either lost to the sands of time or currently being held in limbo in the hellscape that is Suspendedville. FIRST’s refund policy and no specific communications as to the final disposition of those funds are not helping matters. If HQ still has a desire to fulfill the competition experience for the “uncompeted” without “double charging”, they have yet to communicate it - much time has passed since the first “suspension” of events. Many factors out of their control are holding up definitive action…although if they were REALLY committed to preserving team fees no matter what - especially into the 2021 season, which I do not believe has ever been communicated - they could certainly make some kind of announcement to that effect.

It’s a tough situation for all. We do have to recognize that HQ couldn’t have reasonably predicted what would happen, just like all of us. HOWEVER, we also have to recognize that their current payment policies are NOT team friendly when catastrophic things such as this do occur. They ABSOLUTELY require teams to take the vast majority of the risk/loss.

[I wonder if anyone at HQ has examined the cost of some form of insurance in response to this situation?]

Now, HQ knowing FULL WELL what is possible for 2021 (can anyone here guarantee we’ll even compete? I’d love to hear your reasoning if you believe you can), doubling down on those same payment/refund policies for next season would be insane. If they take those steps, they can ABSOLUTELY expect additional teams to, at best, sit out the 2021 FRC season.